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  • Are you pro or anti US?

    I went and saw the new Jeremy Scahill movie with a libertarian buddy of mine and came away shocked at the US Governments continued over reach.

    The biggest take away was the concept that as the US eliminates certain threats, it creates 10 more threats so that the "kill lists" never get any smaller but actually get bigger.

    In terms of incentives, this is exactly what the military industrial complex wants as it justifies their existence.

    I woke up this morning to more turmoil in the middle east (Egyptian Coup) and I wanted to change the channel. However, that seems to be the typical American response and I don't really know what to do.

    I vote but my candidates don't stand a chance. I don't have millions of dollars to try and fight the system. I am the proverbial "red-blooded American" but at some point I can't square my personal beliefs with what my government continues to do.

  • #3
    Anti-US ...USA is a Devil ..it's the origin of all wars in the world only to control this countries & or to get black oil ...america is the first instigator of violence

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    • #4
      As a proud American citizen, I would still same I am pro USA. However, we have some things going on in the government that are absolutely terrible. I can't debate that.

      However, I think the US now produces something like 50% of it's own oil and is working to become energy independent so I don't really believe the Oil conspiracy. I think it's certainly about power but I (in my personal opinion) don't think it's about oil.

      ---------- Post added at 07:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:49 AM ----------

      Scahill's movie is all about drone attacks and how they are used/misused. I'd recommend checking out the trailer.

      TRAILER | Dirty Wars

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      • #5
        I'm absolutely anti US government and things that it's doing, but not ordinar people. Can say the same about my own country. But US is a bit different, because they did a lot of things all round the world. This is very difficult to say in two words.

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        • #6
          It's easy for all the horrible stuff the US Gov't does to overshadow a lot of the good the US has done over the years both by it's people and it's government. A good majority of US citizens are very proud to be American but are embarrassed by the idiocy of our government at times, especially right now. It is definitely a country of opportunity and a place (in most cases) you can pave your own way and destiny to lead a decent life as an American family. While it's tough to really say for sure, it's easy to argue that the world could have been a very very different place, more than likely for the worse, much worse, if the US didn't get involved in the World Wars, namely WW2. And it wasn't just the government, these were American people with solid morals (same as today for the most part) who couldn't bear to see more people die and were willing to give up their own lives to help those across the other side of the world they didn't even know. But unfortunately the government has taken this too far to the extreme and in many ways puts its nose in business we really shouldn't.

          These days I do believe that USA is overstepping its role and boundaries and should swing back to a bit more isolationism like before the World Wars. Sadly, a lot of normal good Americans are the targets, whether it be terror attacks or just people in other countries labeling Americans as bad people, because civilians are an easy and one of the only targets to get to the American government.

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          • #7
            American citizens must .. object to it , Otherwise They are participants in crimes committed by there government !!!!!!
            History will not have mercy on them

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            • #8
              Originally posted by IRespectU View Post
              American citizens must .. object to it , Otherwise They are participants in crimes committed by there government !!!!!!
              History will not have mercy on them
              Originally posted by IRespectU View Post
              Anti-US ...USA is a Devil ..it's the origin of all wars in the world only to control this countries & or to get black oil ...america is the first instigator of violence

              Ultimately, it is comments like these that are ignorant of the historical perspective, and fail to recognize how a populace is essentially a separate entity from its government.

              When people ask whether they are pro or anti United States, what they are really asking is if one is pro or anti Power. People do not fear a country, they fear power, and moreso, unchecked power. Whether it was the USSR, the British Empire, the Chinese Dynasties, the Greeks, the Romans, or dozens of other hegemonic powers throughout history, people fear the rule-of-law that each country imposes. (Note that here, rule-of-law is arbitrary, as determined by each political unit).

              Asking whether someone is Pro-British or Anti-British is a much different thing to ask today compared to 200 years ago. Now that the Empire has fallen, Britain is a much more socially and inwardly focused country, with yearly-growing incentives to work with the European community. Were our unilateral power stripped, would people view the USA so negatively? I do not think so. I should hope that this makes my point clear. It is not the country, but the nature, that people fear. "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely," as the saying goes.

              I would caution everyone against the type of Xenophobic / Jingoist behavior @IRespectU (irony!) uses here. I challenge you to tell us your native country IRespectU, and then claim that you are not a participant in your own country's atrocities. Every government has a skeleton that it is aiming to hide. Just because we object does not mean we have the power to change it.

              Ultimately, there are those in my country that think that these surveillance projects and overseas military actions are just. While I disagree with them, I cannot simply condemn them because my own political values disagree with theirs. The best that I can do is educate in order to help others see the wisdom of peaceful action and democratic ideals.

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              • #9
                I am not anti US, but I despise their government. Also, I disagree with this "and fail to recognize how a populace is essentially a separate entity from its government." are they a separate entity? No. The fact is, these people put them there. No, they did not know this would happen, but the people also have the power to get them out of there. Failure to do so is basically being accomplice to the the crimes committed by the government. They can't just sit by and think the problem will go away. They need to make it go away.

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                • #10
                  Originally posted by IRespectU View Post
                  American citizens must .. object to it , Otherwise They are participants in crimes committed by there government !!!!!!
                  History will not have mercy on them
                  What are we suppose to be objecting to? do you protest for me on your side of the world?
                  I never seen an Egyptian protest for anything, but for things that are affecting them.
                  Why should I be any different?

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                  • #11
                    Originally posted by Blitzed View Post
                    Also, I disagree with this "and fail to recognize how a populace is essentially a separate entity from its government." are they a separate entity? No. The fact is, these people put them there. No, they did not know this would happen, but the people also have the power to get them out of there. Failure to do so is basically being accomplice to the the crimes committed by the government. They can't just sit by and think the problem will go away. They need to make it go away.
                    That's the terribleness of bureaucracy at work, however. The Military Industrial Complex? Pentagon? Alphabet Agencies? None of these are elected positions, they are a conglomerate of Congressional (and some Presidential) appointments. They can neither be placed nor removed via an election system under a Representative Democracy. (1st World Democracies all have their form of Bureaucracy, each equally extensive, particularly so in Socialist & Communist regimes. USA is an outlier due to its Military Bureaucracy) This is how career politicians evade culpability - by placing power outside of elected positions. Then, placing people in these positions requires either a supermajority, or to remove them, an extreme burden of proof, neither of which do Congress actively seek unless public outcry is large enough. Even then, it turns into an Iran-Contra situation, and a proverbial Ollie North is assigned the blame, ousted, and replaced by someone who publicly claims to be more effective but will ultimately maintain the status quo.

                    Guilt by association is one of the worst ways to try and leverage change. If anything, it often galvanizes a person into the opposite action, because they will often support the "devil they know," vs "the devil they don't." If you really want to take the guilt-by-association train down that road, then one has to ask why people support the governments that trade with the United States? By continuing to vote in foreign officials that support the current American Sociopolitical Regime, aren't you complicit as well? See where that road takes us?

                    The bureaucracy socialization system only serves to continue their existence as well. The party recruitment method of governance ensures that only a certain subset of individuals are widely available for election, and these individuals, while differing on a couple key social issues, are largely identical. The bureaucracy, in self preservation, smears all those that would try to eschew this system, guaranteeing that future elected officials support the political industry. Consider it Feudalism 2.0, for the Digital-Capatalist Era.

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Originally posted by Clergy View Post
                      That's the terribleness of bureaucracy at work, however. The Military Industrial Complex? Pentagon? Alphabet Agencies? None of these are elected positions, they are a conglomerate of Congressional (and some Presidential) appointments. They can neither be placed nor removed via an election system under a Representative Democracy. (1st World Democracies all have their form of Bureaucracy, each equally extensive, particularly so in Socialist & Communist regimes. USA is an outlier due to its Military Bureaucracy) This is how career politicians evade culpability - by placing power outside of elected positions. Then, placing people in these positions requires either a supermajority, or to remove them, an extreme burden of proof, neither of which do Congress actively seek unless public outcry is large enough. Even then, it turns into an Iran-Contra situation, and a proverbial Ollie North is assigned the blame, ousted, and replaced by someone who publicly claims to be more effective but will ultimately maintain the status quo.

                      Guilt by association is one of the worst ways to try and leverage change. If anything, it often galvanizes a person into the opposite action, because they will often support the "devil they know," vs "the devil they don't." If you really want to take the guilt-by-association train down that road, then one has to ask why people support the governments that trade with the United States? By continuing to vote in foreign officials that support the current American Sociopolitical Regime, aren't you complicit as well? See where that road takes us?

                      The bureaucracy socialization system only serves to continue their existence as well. The party recruitment method of governance ensures that only a certain subset of individuals are widely available for election, and these individuals, while differing on a couple key social issues, are largely identical. The bureaucracy, in self preservation, smears all those that would try to eschew this system, guaranteeing that future elected officials support the political industry. Consider it Feudalism 2.0, for the Digital-Capatalist Era.
                      Well, I suppose looking at it this way puts another light on the issue altogether. Pretty much shows that this will be a never ending cycle. However, I do think a lot of all the US inspired madness is caused by the fact that the government is quite simply in the pockets of the highest bidders. To me, this is extremely strange. Why would the government of such a powerful country need to stoop so low? This has always been something that bothers me. I find it hard to believe the government there can be pawns in the hands of corporations. Smaller countries I would have understood it, but not in this case. Sorry for straying off, just voiced something that's been at the back of my mind.

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Originally posted by Cappa View Post
                        What are we suppose to be objecting to? do you protest for me on your side of the world?
                        I never seen an Egyptian protest for anything, but for things that are affecting them.
                        Why should I be any different?
                        ok, now for me ur a criminal such as ur president ****** obama

                        what ? are u animal .. u don't have Opinions .. .. feelings and sensations??

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Originally posted by Blitzed View Post
                          Well, I suppose looking at it this way puts another light on the issue altogether. Pretty much shows that this will be a never ending cycle. However, I do think a lot of all the US inspired madness is caused by the fact that the government is quite simply in the pockets of the highest bidders. To me, this is extremely strange. Why would the government of such a powerful country need to stoop so low? This has always been something that bothers me. I find it hard to believe the government there can be pawns in the hands of corporations. Smaller countries I would have understood it, but not in this case. Sorry for straying off, just voiced something that's been at the back of my mind.
                          One of the biggest changes was the corporations are people too application of the Citizens United case. Now the highest bidder is able to drown out the competition with constant media bombardments. I understand the idea that people need to voice their concerns and stand up against their government if they feel it is acting inappropriately. However, I make way less than an apple type corporation does in a year. If I spent every single penny they'd still have several orders of magnitude on me on media spending.

                          As another poster mentioned, unless there is virtual unanimous public outcry, there is no change in DC. The reason is that one huge corporation is roughly equal to 100,000 average americans in terms of donations made to corporate politics. The vast majority of US citizens are more concerned with living their "American Dream" than they are with re-directing this attention to monitoring their government. For me it's all about personal economics and self interest.

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            Originally posted by IRespectU View Post
                            ok, now for me ur a criminal such as ur president ****** obama

                            what ? are u animal .. u don't have Opinions .. .. feelings and sensations??
                            Hey man, this is the Brain Stew, I think we can at least strive to rise above calling an individual a criminal and animal, ok? (Particularly considering your name)

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