Thread: Studying and thinking

I am very much still going for it. but what is happening im thinking about what this tech is going to lead to and deciding wether or not i can live with the effects that i can see.



Thats the fuuny thing. i have no idea where things will lead. i can imagine out comes but there will be some i cant fathom yet.

and i better adapt to this or be a dinosaur before i have grey hair lol. this is almost my world soon it will be the younger kids then the next and the next. each feeling less and less concerned with those things i hold dear. and this is ok cuz thats how it is.

Again guys thanx for posting.

great thoughts beget great thoughts.

keep em comming

Great post man, good to see thinkers like you out there.

Biotech has always been a very controversial subject. A lot of people are against brain implants and robotic limbs and organs. "Let nature take it's course". Personally, I think it is up to the user whether or not they feel they should do something like this. I Also think it is wonderful that we can create things that regenerate cells, prolong life and give otherwise terminal or paraplegic people new hope. If it ever does completely take off, I think it should be kept in the medical and scientific fields.

I saw a demo of a computer that goes around your neck, displaying holographic images upon surfaces such as newspapers, where it gives you videos and live updates. It showed your status to other people. It could complete money transactions with the blink of an eye. It was phased out however due to the case that it may have needed a brain implant. I myself am very undecided on that piece of technology.

Do what you think is right.

Cheers,
Aturey

There are a great number of topics and ideas being thrown around here so I will boil it down to one simple term: the future. This is what we are really talking about, the future of humanity, technology, culture, etc... If you want to know more about these specific topics: I suggest doing some research on them. They are FAR too vast for me to cover even in low detail.

I have spent many years researching this topic and I am glad someone brought this up as I am more than willing to share all I have learned. Keep in mind though that I am simply relaying facts to you. This is how the future will play out (for the next 40 years at most, the rest is impossible to know; for a reason):

• Biology will come first, specifically the integration of biology and technology. By this I mean stuff like gene manipulation. Within the next 5-10 years, our advancement in biology will be sufficient enough to alter the DNA of people (fetuses at first, then existing people using RNA interference). This will reach it's peak in about 10-15 years where it will be completely widespread and as common as cell phones (the answer to why follows).
  • Before we proceed to the core parts, I would like to inform you that many other things can be achieved through genetic manipulation such as giving us the ability to regenerate (we have the same genes as creatures that do, they are just inactive) among many, many other features.
  • The first manipulation of DNA you will see will resemble a pill designed to eliminate fat, that is right. Check this out: here. You may research this further to verify. It's the ultimate diet plan, never get fat. Period. Obesity is one of the leading causes of heart disease and diabetes; this cause can be eliminated. Very few people will stop themselves taking advantage of this one. Not to mention, it gives you the benefits of calorie restriction without actually restricting calories so you will live about 20% longer.
  • The next step in this path will be more advanced gene manipulation, particularly into the area of life extension. See here. This gene was found years ago, this is one of many. Scientists in this particular field expect that many alterations to DNA can allow lifespan increases of 10x-30x based on our current knowledge. This is based on knowledge in 2010, this era will peak in the mid 2020's; imagine what we will be capable of then. Staying young for hundreds of years? Count me in, as well as every other sane person on this planet (before you jump to overpopulation conclusions, read the entire post).
  • Lastly, we have actual ability enhancements. These types of genetic alterations will do things like make everyone muscular and in shape without the need for exercise. See here. (read all 3 pages, you will be surprised) Don't forget intelligence which is directly related to your DNA in multiple different places, which can be altered. See here for brilliant mice. Who doesn't want to be faster, stronger, more enduring, or smarter? I certainly would jump on this one too, just like almost every other person on this planet.
• 'Implants' - I personally hate this term, it is entirely 20th century and gives the wrong feel completely (the term enhancements gives a much better idea of what these 21st century technologies will be) and should be deprecated. I will discuss the different stages of implants and what you can expect.
  • BCI (Brain Computer Interface) is the first type of implants you will see, actually they already exist today. See here. (read the sections on Animal and Human research if you're lazy) You will see these become prominent in the era of biological advancement described above and they will continue to advance considerably until the era of nanotechnology when they will no longer be needed. (explained in that part)
  • Eyes. Yes you heard me, eyes. Bionic eyes will not only allow blind people to see (which the current technology does crudely) but will be a welcomed enhancement to our own eyes. Bionic eyes will not only allow you to see more colors, night vision, infrared, and ultraviolet (among many other parts of the spectrum such as microwaves) but will also allow you to see much, much farther and more accurately. You think a hawk has amazing eyesight? It is nothing compared to bionic eyes. Who wouldn't want to see in the dark? See new colors? I certainly would.
  • Ears. Bionic ears folks, these implants already exist today to help deaf people hear again (I don't even need to provide a link here, everyone knows this) and in the near future, these things will allow regular people to hear farther and a much broader range of frequencies that are currently unavailable to our ears.
  • I could go on, by now some of you might be wondering how you'd control such eyes or ears: the answer is the same as you control your arms or legs. The BCI is basically the core enhancement that enables so much more.
• Machine Consciousness : This is absolutely a MASSIVE subject and definitely dwarfs all others (except nanotechnology). I cannot provide even remotely enough information in this one post but I will try. Machine intelligence will fundamentally change our entire society from the very core. No links here, sorry I have already spent a good two hours on this post. If you need any information, either Google or ask me here.
  • Machines are already infinitely stronger and faster than us. Currently the only thing we have on them is our intelligence, they do what we tell them for now...otherwise, they don't do anything at all. This is going to change dramatically, as we draw to a close on understanding the human brain (and computing power is exponentially growing) we arrive at a point where we can create consciousness digitally.
  • Our brains work by means of neurons and their many connections, machines use electricity (eventually light then entanglement) which effectively allows their brain to work many times faster than our own. A fraction of a second worth of thought for them is equivalent to a good portion of a year (using electrical circuits), many years (using light circuitry), and 10s of 1000s of years (using entanglement) worth of thought for us. Add this to the fact that their brain sizes are not fixed (you can always expand their hardware) and that they are modular (they can rewrite themselves to be smarter and more efficient). Comparing our intelligence to theirs is like comparing the size of the universe, the that of an insect. This distance grows with time, exponentially.
  • You might be wondering what's left for humans at this point as we seem to be pretty obsolete in the future, I will share my personal view on a possible future for us as a biological species below (the purple text). One thing I want to point out though about your comment on sharing thoughts and privacy: in order to share and understand thoughts we must first understand the human brain and if we haven't already developed machine intelligence by then, we surely will with that knowledge; by this point your thoughts won't really matter (no one will be interested in spying on your mind, or mine).
• Nanotechnology (peaks in 20-40 years, depending on how much research is started now) : This subject is just as MASSIVE as machine intelligence, don't expect too much here as I can't even begin to get into major detail in this post. True nanotechnology though is working at the nanometer scale (individual atoms and molecules < 100nm) and this is what I will put a few points here about.
  • Everything is made of atoms. The difference between a dead person and a living person is atoms, the difference between a sick person and a healthy person is atoms (regardless of the disease), the difference between an old person and a young person is atoms, the difference between food and no food is also atoms. The difference between diamond and graphite isn't even types of atoms but configuration. It goes on and on and on.
  • Nanotechnology truly is the holy grail of all there is to come, you can mass produce ANYTHING you can think of with literally no cost. You can recycle EVERYTHING to an accuracy of no less than 100%. ;) This solves almost every single problem known to us today from disease to aging, starvation to poverty, and much more. It even almost completely solves war seeing as how the things war is mostly fought over are no longer a problem.
  • This is the stage where implants truly become useless because we can just change ourselves to do whatever we want from the atomic level up. From respirocytes that allow holding your breath for 4 hours, sprinting up to 15 minutes without taking a breath, and eliminating muscle fatigue to outright replacing every last cell in your body with programmable matter eliminating your dependence on biological fragility completely.
  • Things can even become truly invisible when it comes to nanotechnology as seen here. Granted that particular discovery works with the microwave frequency of the EM spectrum but there are other groups out there working on the same concept, one has even managed to make headway in bending visible light. This type of technology isn't actually limited to nanotechnology but it is a HUGE enabling factor, allowing the construction of practical applications of invisibility technology. More info.

First and foremost, before I continue, please know this: these emerging technologies are FACT and they are not hundreds of years away. They are decades away, most of you will be alive through all I have relayed above. I have tried to stay mainly on topic of technologies that will impact humans and their lives directly. There are MANY, MANY more technologies emerging such as laser weaponry (here, here, here, etc..) that I could have included by it would have taken far too much time and there is simply not enough room.

Personal View
This is something we must all address sooner or later, some may not like the coming technologies as well as the roles they will inevitably play in our lives while others may look forward and wait for the day they arrive. I personally fall in the latter category as I am fascinated by technology and the universe in general; there is so much we do not understand, we have barely scratched the surface and I want to be there to grasp it all.

Ethics does play a large role around the time machine intelligence comes around, we must ask ourselves how we deal with and accept the initial surge of it. We must also address how we nurture and develop it so we don't end up with a species of beings akin to terminators that regards us as useless, even though we may very well be.

The biggest question that perplexes my mind in particular is what will become of us, this is a tough question as we most definitely will become second... outdone by this new breed of beings in every aspect (strength, speed, endurance, logical and emotional intelligence) it is hard to see where we fit in. Many come to the obvious conclusion that we must change ourselves to keep up or be left in the dust.

I personally feel that our only option is to jump in head first, develop this new breed of being, and emerge as one species combining the benefits of what makes us human and the benefits of our technological strength, speed, endurance, and intellectual power. Truly living on, this is the only way I can see it happening... otherwise we will simply be remembered as their creators.

Surely there will be those who follow the same outlook as I do and will dive in to change themselves, others may not and unfortunately the divide between their abilities (especially intellectually) will be a massive one.

You're probably wondering why my personal view is largely based around the aspect of machine intelligence and my answer to you is that it is not. While nanotechnology and biological engineering are big subjects, they are more factual; my view (you may find it below, as a quote) on them is quite short as there is not much to contemplate... it is the logical conclusion. These subjects are underlying mechanisms that lay the foundation for our society and pave the wave for machine intelligence whereas machine intelligence is much closer to us, it's about losing our superiority and monopoly of intelligence over all else that we know.

Originally Posted by My View on Technologies

They are great, they will solve many if not most of our current problems. Surely they will create some problems but the technologies will be developed eventually by someone so we are better off gaining their benefits and fixing/preventing the problems created.

If this is as intriguing to you as it is to me, then I encourage you to research not only this particular topic but all of the related topics (as they all tie together in the end) and formulate your own opinions, but know this: even if we attempt to prevent such a coming change, nothing will be different... the trends are clear, we've been moving down this course for decades now and it's beginning to show its head. We are at a point now that this is the only way left to advance ourselves in our current state and venture beyond our tiny little planet.

As for the cultural impact this will all have... it is such a drastic change that prediction is impossible.

Hope this is what you were talking about, I know you started off with the concept of biotech and wanted to connect it to various other topics like the ones I have mentioned above and I think I have done that here. Like I stated, many years have been spent by myself researching these topics and the larger picture of technological and advancement trends. There is so much more I could discuss about information technology and even the topics listed above. Though you will all have to settle for what is there now, it was made to be as informative and short as possible so that everyone can jump right in to it. :) If any of this peaks anyone's interest then I advice you to research it, it is quite amazing and I am sure I am forgetting to include some of the most amazing parts.

This post has become much more than just a response to anyone here, it is more me just dumping my information and views on these matters. Feedback is appreciated.

I leave you with this critique of cdf15's comment on people being selfish:

This is hardly a hypothesis, let alone a theory.

Our ancestors mastered fire and cooked their food before the human species even existed, which led to a smaller digestive system (cooked food takes less work to digest) which in turn allows our brain to become bigger (brain and digestive system are the two biggest energy consumers). Couple that with the eyes of the great ape family which detect the most colors and are full frontal, allowing for an amazing degree of binocular vision but lack of awareness which forced us to live in groups to protect each other. (rabbits have no binocular vision, though they can see 360 degrees at all times) As a result of living in groups, we developed the ability of emotions and a method of expressing them using facial expressions so that we could tell what each of us was feeling. All of these are only part of the workings that put us on the path to evolve our high intelligence (relative to the other animals), there are many more aspects.

It is the sheer fact of human beings NOT being selfish that directly aided our survival and was favored evolutionarily which led to the development of emotions, expression, our whole social aspect, and ultimatly our intelligence. Our ancestors were social as well (the eyes, group living, and emotions came much before them and is extended throughout the entire great ape family) but did not have the same brain size and intelligence as we. You can see by this example that our whole family tree (evolutionarily speaking) has taken us from being selfish, non-social animals to social, non-selfish ones.

I suggest you do some research if you truly think that we evolved as selfish creatures. Quite a lot of time has been spent by me researching this topic.

To the future,
JGinvs

There is sooooo much here i want to comment on but i will comment on one thing to clear the air. These technologies have arrived and have been around in physical form not just know how for some years now. And EVERY tech you have mentioned in the first list i am studying RIGHT NOW. All of them work all are fully functional and the only thing left is to put them together as i am about to do. We cant go back the only way to go is forward. I do somewhat pity the past that is about to be because one of the casualties that is about to happen... one of the first... is privacy. As much as i hate to say it but it is an obsolete idea that has been dying for years and now its on its death bed. I have mixed feelings about this. im sorrowful and yet relieved. Dont attack me for this but i constantly think of this. constantly. the pros, cons, and unimaginable. effects of a tech few grasp. to the sad part of me i appologize to the excited part of me i salute and encourage. I am trying to fully understand both sides trying to justify niether and it is difficult on a good day.

Please continue to give me thoughts and ideas.

aubry, all i know how to do is what i think is right... the problem is i can justify anything to myself.

Quote from JGinvs:

It is the sheer fact of human beings NOT being selfish that directly aided our survival and was favored evolutionarily which led to the development of emotions, expression, our whole social aspect, and ultimatly our intelligence. Our ancestors were social as well (the eyes, group living, and emotions came much before them and is extended throughout the entire great ape family) but did not have the same brain size and intelligence as we. You can see by this example that our whole family tree (evolutionarily speaking) has taken us from being selfish, non-social animals to social, non-selfish ones.

In response to this I would say that I basically agree with what you are saying here about humans being social animals. I agree that humans are social and often help others in a "non-selfish" or "group helping" way. My point was that deep down, from a Darwinian evolutionary standpoint, this social/group behavior only evolved through natural selection because it improved the fitness (chance for survival/mating) or the individuals i.e. "selfish." It goes without saying that a human being's chance for survival is improved vastly by working with the group. Just imagine trying to survive alone out in the woods. It's been done but I doubt it's easy. What I am saying is that cooperation and group behavior (which is what you seem to be talking about) is very different from truly selfless behavior. I'm saying that we take for granted this modern society which affords us so many opportunities to act in a selfless way. Many people in wealthier nations have an excess of food/shelter/wealth that allows us to give generously to our fellow man in a "selfless" way. I just read about a study that says american's throw out 40% of their food each day. Talk about excess. I'm saying that if the chips were down and we were not so fortunate as to have so much more than we need, people would be a hell of alot more selfish than we can afford to be today. If you believe strongly in Darwin's natural selection (as I do) then you know that nature only selects for behaviors which maximize our own personal survival (or that of our own children). These are what I would call "selfish" behaviours.

By the way: I'm not trying to argue with you here. Only stating my own views. I think we probably agree on alot. We are just looking at it in a different way.

in a social setting your right selfishness is measured by actions. but on an inner setting within your very moral basis actions are selfish, you want to do, so you do. its not meant to be negative it is meant for perspective. which is a whole other topic lol

Originally Posted by Tru_ninja

in a social setting your right selfishness is measured by actions. but on an inner setting within your very moral basis actions are selfish, you want to do, so you do. its not meant to be negative it is meant for perspective. which is a whole other topic lol

Yes sir. You seem to get what I was saying. I did not mean selfish in a typical negative context. I was only trying to link modern human behavior with it's core biological science. Thats all.

I have had this conversation so many time when trying to discuss EVIL as a point of view. People would say selflessness is the trait of good people while selfishness is a trait of evil.

i view all as selfish because we do what we desire to do for an outcome we desire. whether it be through restraint of primal impulses or encouragment of them. we do as we want.


Back to the topic, i presented my aurgument to my professor today and he was rather intrigued.

i want to show how genetics will allow protien nanobots to not be rejected by the host, also how robotics has evolved to the point of micro robotics into nanorobotics. and how all of these can be controlled by thought. he did tell me it was a bit ambitious but i have a green light.

he did say he wanted me to break it down so the others could understand. My thoughts are to find children literature on these subjects and paraphrase. or to email the other students little tid bits of information on each subject.

One thing i could email them is the folding @home project info and maybe even get a few to participate.

anythoughts on this?

Before I begin, I would like to thank you guys for the rep on my first post; definitely was not expecting that. I did enjoy your responses and initial posts and I would have loved to thank you for that but I either can't at my user level or I am an idiot that can't find how; so don't think I didn't appreciate them. I would also like to apologize, it has been a number of days since I have returned here to respond.

TO CDF15:

I understand now what you were referring to and I must admit that we do agree on a lot of things, though I think selfish is the wrong term to use because it's been given such a terrible meaning attached to it. What we are really referring to is basic survival: sure, every person is looking out for themselves... it's easiest for individuals to look after themselves first rather than to add layers of individuals looking after each other. In the end, you can't have a species or society without individuals looking out for each other secondarily but then you can't have individuals without them looking out for their own survival firstly; natural selection kills off individuals if they don't look out for themselves along with those that are not equipped to survive.

Of course when I speak of individuals above, I am referring to their genetic information (as this is all evolution is concerned with) which is why most animals will look out for their children before themselves because the children are the ones propagating the information.

While I do agree with you on much of what you said in your second post and now with this new understanding, your first post. I was merely speaking in relative terms about selfishness and selflessness (because it's nearly impossible to truly be selfless as an individual; speaking of genetic information here) when it comes to the rest of the animal kingdom; we are the least selfish which is why we are so far ahead (among other reasons).

Americans throwing out food is a good example, though I disagree on what it is an example of. The food is thrown out due to practicality rather than selfishness in my view, it would simply require more resources to bring this food to those who need it in an organized fashion than it is actually worth. (quite a bit of food thrown out is perishable and won't even last) Personally, I think that number of 40% is a bit high for the average american; I remember seeing somewhere it was a more reasonable number like 20-30%, I can understand some people throwing out 40% though. It is just impossible for a lot of people as they are in poverty and they cannot possibly just toss 40% of all the food they buy with their limited money out the window.

As for the other posts about selfishness in society and whatnot, I think some of my above sheds some light on that... particularly the part about it being impossible to truly be selfish.

FOR TRU_NINJA:

True nanobots will not be around when the peak of our genetic technology reaches, we may have some technology in that field but only in its infancy. Genetics may allow some of these to not be rejected by the host but for the bulk of nanotechnology, it is not a concern because when it does come around... due to the design of nanobots: this problem won't even exist. Though it is still a topic worth exploring if you're interested in the early stages of our future.

Glad you got the green light though, and I say you should definitely proceed. As for breaking it down: this is a great idea, it is extremely hard to do though. I feel that there is a base level of intelligence required to truly grasp any of these particular concepts (intelligence = understanding, in case anyone thinks I am being insulting) so they would have to have a bit of knowledge on other related topics. This is not to discourage you but it's one of the main reasons as to why the average person would view these as "magical" and "500 years away". I guess it all depends on how in-depth you want to get and how much information you want to include. Perhaps you could share some of your broken down explanation and paraphrasing with us when you're finished, I would be interested to see how it turns out.

Folding@HOME is a good idea to include, it's an amazing project that helps to advance our understanding and it would be nice if a few did participate. ;)

Personally, I run a few distributed computing projects on my spare cycles, including Folding, SETI (searches for extraterrestrial intelligence), Einstein (detects gravitational waves from things like Pulsars), MilkyWay (determins the structure of our galaxy), and QMC (predicts molecular geometry) among some others.

I think it's a great idea, at worst some people may not care or disagree and at best... well some people will get interested it in and help contribute to our future with their career choices and education. Currently 90% of all scientists that ever lived are alive today, I am sure some of you have heard that one but consider this: we need more.

No doubt, many will find all of this stuff surprising; but this is only because they have skewed views as to when said technology will come about or its practicality; this is usually a result of extrapolating from history (which is not always correct, despite belief to the contrary; for anyone who thinks it is).

I should probably end it here before I get carried away like I did with my last post. Keep up the intellectual thought guys, good stuff! Hope this sheds some light on my initial positions and good luck to you Tru_Ninja! Let me know how it works out.

Looking forward,
JGinvs