Debate Thread! Do you blame anti pirates organisations for taking down pvt trackers?

[Eschaton]

No, it shouldn’t.

I mean, the one thing...THE ONE THING, that you truly own in this world is your body.

the government should have no say in what you do with it.

If only that were true. Prostitution, like gambling is ultimately a business, and is a dirty one. When it comes to businesses such as these strict laws come into play and that does not necessarily work in favour of the sex workers. Prostitution is already legalized in a few central European countries, but a few of the laws that are implemented to keep it in check – advertising is not allowed, no individual solicitation allowed etc. – which are good when it comes to big picture, actually makes way to pimping and other such activities – in the end it’s probably the pimp who owns your body.

Yes I have, but the majority get into it because of the easy money that they can't make anywhere else.

Exactly why it should be illegalized. Women (or men) may get into it for a few quick bucks, but once you’ve dipped your hand in the pool, you’ll have to take of your clothes and go for a swim. Since (as far as I know) any person can’t run on the road offering themselves to strangers, the only way would be to find ‘connections’ or ‘employment’ as to work, and once you join a ‘firm’, you become an investment – an investment that can’t cash in and check out when they wish and will to. In other words prostitution is a full time job, or even if it is a part time one it won’t be a short one. And no one who wants to live a normal life would want to stick to this job, because people and society tend to be prejudiced (with reason). What would you say if you come to know that your sister or mom is or aspires to become a ‘whore’? Or is even considering it for ‘a quick buck’? You’ll definitely think there’s something wrong – I mean prostitution isn’t the most respectable vocation out there – and won’t be even if it is legalized.

It's the oldest profession and passing a law will never stop it.

True, so let it stay underground – it won’t stop, and the people who desperately need it will get to it. By legalizing if it is encouraged it will spread. Sex and drugs are two vices that should be contained because if they spread they can easily become a part of your lifestyle (aren’t you glad its marijuana and not heroin or crystal meth that’s legal in Amsterdam?). Once it becomes part of your lifestyle, it gives way to more fetishes and others. Fifty – sixty years ago talking about sex in public and sex in movies and other media was taboo, and now we see it everywhere (which I have no qualms with) – I’m giving this as an example - this is just the rate at which it can rise; today the American porn industry is one of the highest (if not the highest) revenue earner for the country – coming to this state of might just in a few decades. At this rate with legalized prostitution we can expect an Idiocratic world soon enough (Yes, I am referring to THAT Mike Judge movie).

New Zealand made prostitution legal a couple of years ago. They also made being a brothel owner a legal business as well but with strict regulations in place. No brothels are to operate within a suburban area and no schools nearby. I think by memory too there are certain background checks they make when you apply to start a brothel.

Hypothetically speaking – legalized prostitution could actually work out in countries with a lower density of population. Central Europe is highly populated and that’s why you hear a lot about the weird stuff that goes around there, some of you may have even watched Eli Roth’s highly insightful, highly provocative documentaries ‘Hostel’ & ‘Hostel Part II’. Like I said, legalizing prostitution makes way for other fetishes and activities that may or may not be legal – eventually 100 – 150 years down the line paedophilia and sodomy (with animals) may be legalized too.


And Jenna thanks for this thread, at least some room for intelligent conversation in what is generally a one word answer zone. **lightnening strikes Eschaton** Hey, could we have a debate section and not just a thread pwease? ** inserted cute picture of pleading puppy/ bunny/ cute animal** Pwetty pwetty pwease? We could have monthly or weekly debates hmmmm….

[staffrodore]

So from what I've read you're against making the type of service they provide a safer environment and still have them classed as criminals?
Here is a run down of the old laws and what they mean't in to prostitutes in NZ

solicited for the purposes of prostitution (up to $200 fine);

kept a brothel (up to 5 years in prison);
lived on the earnings of prostitution (up to 5 years in prison);
procured anyone for the purposes of prostitution (up to 7 years in prison).

And here's some of the new reformed laws.

You have the right to refuse to have sex with a client for any reason, or for no reason. No one- including managers, receptionists, minders, clients, other workers, etc., can force you to have sex with a client, even if he has paid. Managers cannot fine you for refusing a client- it is against the law for them to do so.

You cannot be coerced (“induced or compelled”) into having sex by having money taken off you, etc., (i.e., fined, etc.), or threatened in any way. Section 16 of the Prostitution Reform Act states any person who does so “commits an offence and is liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years”.

You do not have to register with the police, or even contact the police, if you wish to be a sex worker in New Zealand. Under the old laws, Massage parlours were required to keep a register of names, with identifying details, which were to be given to the police for inspection “upon request”. In some areas, people working privately had to register with the police before they could advertise in their local newspaper.
This is no longer the case.

Operators, clients and sex workers must take all reasonable steps to “ensure a prophylactic sheath (condom) or other appropriate barrier is used if those services involve vaginal, anal, or oral penetration or another activity with a similar or greater risk of acquiring or transmitting sexually transmissible infections”. Failure to do so can mean a hefty fine. This means that everyone should use a condom and/or dental dam for vaginal, oral and anal sex.

A brothel is a place that is habitually used by just one sex worker or more for commercial sex activities with clients. All brothels must display health promotion messages. There are some posters that have been published by the Ministry of Health that spell out the requirements for safer sex practices. These are available from NZPC and are free.

Operators are required to have “Operators Certificates”. An operator is any person who has any form of control over a sex worker. This includes owners, directors of companies, managers, and may include receptionists. Check section 5 of the Prostitution Reform Act if you are unsure if this affects you, or ring NZPC. There is a form you send to the Registrar at the Auckland District Court. The forms are available from the Ministry of Justice website. The cost of applying is currently $205.00 including GST. There are some people who may not be able to get an Operators Certificate if they have previous convictions for violence, sexual offences, or certain drug related offences. However, people can appeal against this on several grounds. It is worth checking this out if you have been refused an Operators Certificate.

Sex workers can work with any convictions.

Up to four sex workers can work together and do not need an Operators Certificate, so long as no one is in charge of anyone else, or working as a boss. If there are more than four sex workers working together, as equals, one will have to apply for an Operators Certificate.

Councils have the right to make bylaws affecting the signage and location of brothels, but cannot ban brothels outright. Some councils have zoned brothels to certain areas. Some councils also have home based-occupation rules affecting anyone who works from home. It is important to be aware of any bylaw that may affect you if you are thinking about establishing a brothel or working from home or apartments in certain areas.

A sex worker is “at work” for the purposes of OSH when they are providing sexual services. There are Occupational Safety and Health guidelines have been developed by OSH in consultation with NZPC, sex workers and brothel operators. These guidelines are available from the OSH website.

If you are a sex worker who wishes to leave sex work, you can go onto a benefit without any extra stand down being imposed for voluntary unemployment.

You can be a sex worker in New Zealand provided you are a New Zealand citizen.

If you are thinking of coming to New Zealand to work as a sex worker; or to own, open, or invest in, a brothel or other business of prostitution, your visa can be refused. If you hold a temporary visa, or if your permanent residency carries a special condition, you can be deported if you own a brothel or other business of prostitution, or if you are working in the sex industry.

If you are a brothel operator, or a client, you can be fined or imprisoned if you hire a sex worker who is under 18. It is also illegal to receive money from a sex worker under the age of 18. It is not illegal to be a sex worker if you are younger than 18. However, if you hire a sex worker under 18 to work in your brothel, or if you are a client who hires a sex worker under 18 to provide you with sexual services, you are breaking the law.

Many newspapers require photo ID before allowing adverts for sex workers in the adult entertainment columns. This is to ensure that they do not “cause, assist, facilitate, or encourage a person under 18 years of age to provide commercial sexual services to any person”, which also carries a prison sentence.

Some brothel operators have already been found guilty of hiring people under the age of 18 to work as sex workers. In one case, it appears the brothel operator did not check ID to ensure the person was over 18, but as the law allows no defence to the charge, they were found guilty. Therefore, in order to protect yourself from being prosecuted, NZPC recommends that all brothel operators view photo ID of people they are hiring to ensure they are over 18.

So as you can see these laws benefit everyone. In my mind saying keep it illegal is living in the dark ages and sets the "pimps" up for more power.

Oh, if my mother or sister decided to become a prosititute it wouldn't worry me at all, her choice and she is still a human who needs to survive. It's really not as bad compared to some of the more legit professions out there.

And lets not forget that now they have to pay TAX unlike before.

[JustJenna]

And Jenna thanks for this thread, at least some room for intelligent conversation in what is generally a one word answer zone. **lightnening strikes Eschaton** Hey, could we have a debate section and not just a thread pwease? ** inserted cute picture of pleading puppy/ bunny/ cute animal** Pwetty pwetty pwease? We could have monthly or weekly debates hmmmm….

I would love that actually. Fade suggested it some time ago, but unfortunately it's not on the table yet. I think Dave is too busy with other things at the moment to have time. I will bring it back up though as there definitely seems to be a good deal of interest. For the moment, though, this thread will have to suffice.

[ironhide]

"Prostitution is defined as the act of engaging in sexual activity in exchange for money or goods."

So prostitution is not allowed here at t-i, coz this is considered trading or selling.:001_tongue:

Back on topic:
Some good views already discussed so I'll just add mine.
For me, it's ok to leagalize prostitution, just like in New Zealand as what staffrodore said.
I like to maybe put up a school for the whore just to teach them the basic moves or educate them about the underlying dangers of their job :laugh:

Leagalize it? Yes. If only at the time of Jesus it was legal, Mary Magdalene(prolly the most famous prostitute of all) wouldn't have a bad image today
And if Jesus can have an affair with her, a known prostitute(well according to Dan Brown), so can other christians like me

[Eschaton]

So from what I've read you're against making the type of service they provide a safer environment and still have them classed as criminals?

No, but that wasn’t my point at all.

You have the right to refuse to have sex with a client for any reason, or for no reason. Managers cannot fine you for refusing a client- it is against the law for them to do so.

So a drunken dude picks up a prostitute and they go to a hotel room, and then she turns him down ‘cos he’s drunk & stinks. Think he’ll stand there quiet? Of course, this won’t be a commonly occurring case, so let’s leave this alone.

No one- including managers, receptionists, minders, clients, other workers, etc., can force you to have sex with a client, even if he has paid.

The biggest question here – will this be actively enforced? Is it possible? Will the sex worker have that much freedom?

Operators are required to have “Operators Certificates”. An operator is any person who has any form of control over a sex worker. This includes owners, directors of companies, managers, and may include receptionists.

(aka pimps)

You do not have to register with the police, or even contact the police, if you wish to be a sex worker in New Zealand. Under the old laws, Massage parlours were required to keep a register of names, with identifying details, which were to be given to the police for inspection “upon request”. In some areas, people working privately had to register with the police before they could advertise in their local newspaper.
This is no longer the case.

I actually liked all the reforms here, except for this – all of them make sense and are constructive, but this? Yes, it may make it easier to open a ‘massage parlour’ without the cops butting in, but would it really be safe? Unless sex work places or massage parlours employ security staff (a la casinos), there may be hope or else sex workers can easily be taken advantage of – by customers or their operators. Do you actually think every prostitute will complain each time a customer or pimp forces her to do what they don’t want to?

Sex workers can work with any convictions.

I hope they mean convictions for previous sex offences (not violent sex offences though), and not other convictions.

If you are thinking of coming to New Zealand to work as a sex worker; or to own, open, or invest in, a brothel or other business of prostitution, your visa can be refused. If you hold a temporary visa, or if your permanent residency carries a special condition, you can be deported if you own a brothel or other business of prostitution, or if you are working in the sex industry

Legalized prostitution could also lead to an increase in human trafficking.

I could argue all of these points, but here’s another reason why it shouldn’t be enforced (leaving out all the reasons I had given before) – it'll lead to legalized mafia.

I'm sure many wise men came up with these reforms, and I'm pretty sure it'll work out in a country like New Zealand (like I've stressed before) - which is relatively a less densely populated area with a lesser crime rate; think about it in central European countries, South American countries, countries like India, major metropolitan cities, cities like New York and Shanghai atc. Will it be kept in check? If so how much resources will it take to keep a check on it? Is it worth it? The biggest questions when it comes to prostitution isn't only the welfare of the sex workers, but if the society can take it, and live with it.

Oh, if my mother or sister decided to become a prostitute it wouldn't worry me at all, her choice and she is still a human who needs to survive.

I applaud you, honest – if you are honest. I’d personally not leave this decision to choice. Whenever it comes to a debate like, people tend to say ‘oh yes, sure I wouldn’t mind some random dudes boning my mum and sis, cos I totally embrace prostitution’ just to make a point, because if you don’t, it’s as good as you’ve admitted that you are a hypocrite.

[will.i.am]

EDIT:Sorry for the ignorant post.

[lollerbaby]

Eschaton, I think you are more concerned about the policies of legalized prostitution and not if it should be legalized. That is the main point here.

For me, safety for ALL human beings is the most important thing. You say that you don't want your mom or sister aspiring to be whores. Well if they wanted to become prostitutes without your permission and went out and did it, wouldn't you want them to be as safe as possible? In the current state, they could be abused and raped all the while too scared to go to the police because they're doing something illegal. If it were legalized, they will be protected by laws. Yes, laws aren't perfect. Yes, there will be times where the laws won't be obeyed, but it's better than doing nothing and leaving your sister or mom to fend for themselves.

I think people are so used to being oppressed by silly laws that they don't realize that they own their own body and others own their own body. What others decide to do with their own body is of their own concern. You can't control what people feel and what people want to be.

The policies for legalized prostitution is a different debate.

[staffrodore]

I actually liked all the reforms here, except for this – all of them make sense and are constructive, but this? Yes, it may make it easier to open a ‘massage parlour’ without the cops butting in, but would it really be safe? Unless sex work places or massage parlours employ security staff (a la casinos), there may be hope or else sex workers can easily be taken advantage of – by customers or their operators. Do you actually think every prostitute will complain each time a customer or pimp forces her to do what they don’t want to?

Read right below that section where it says this is no longer the case. They have ammended that part of the law. So yes, all have to register, managers and workers alike.

I hope they mean convictions for previous sex offences (not violent sex offences though), and not other convictions.

Yes they mean all sex convictions

I'm sure many wise men came up with these reforms, and I'm pretty sure it'll work out in a country like New Zealand (like I've stressed before) - which is relatively a less densely populated area with a lesser crime rate; think about it in central European countries, South American countries, countries like India, major metropolitan cities, cities like New York and Shanghai atc. Will it be kept in check? If so how much resources will it take to keep a check on it? Is it worth it? The biggest questions when it comes to prostitution isn't only the welfare of the sex workers, but if the society can take it, and live with it.

If you think because NZ has a smaller population therefore a lesser crime rate you are mistaken. Crime here is just as bad as anywhere else in the world. Crime against sex workers though has dropped remarkably since these reforms and I can't see why it wouldn't work anywhere4 else. In fact it may actually free up resources by not having the police cruise and trap the workers. Just think, they could instead be working on some other crime.

I applaud you, honest – if you are honest. I’d personally not leave this decision to choice. Whenever it comes to a debate like, people tend to say ‘oh yes, sure I wouldn’t mind some random dudes boning my mum and sis, cos I totally embrace prostitution’ just to make a point, because if you don’t, it’s as good as you’ve admitted that you are a hypocrite.

Yes I am being honest. I used to drive for 2 escort companies. Good paying job if you don't mind working all hours of the night. And while driving the girls to jobs and back you get to talk to them and find out they are normal everyday women, many of who might have young kids at home and without this occupation may not be able to provide for their kids. I have also had a partner who become a working girl, didn't work out for us as it can place a strain on any relationship. But did I think any less or look down on her for doing so? No. The problem is alot of people need to look at the person, not what they do for a living.

Lets try this then. If your mum or sister was going out every night to different bars etc and having sex with random strangers for nothing, would you be ok with that because no money is involved?

[Eschaton]

Eschaton, I think you are more concerned about the policies of legalized prostitution and not if it should be legalized. That is the main point here.

I guess it comes off so, but that isn't what I'm concerned about. When people talk about legalizing prostitution they only talk about rights of the sex voters and morality, but not about the whole picture. There are various factors that come into play, legalizing prostitution doesn't only effect sex workers. Sex is something every red blooded male/female seek, and that makes legalizing prostitution not a good idea - people who yesterday thought going to prostitutes is morally wrong (they may be married, in a relationship) may be tempted to do otherwise. Prostitution has the potential, like tobacco and oil companies to contributing a lot to the economy, but also the capability to form a lobby that will turn the interests of the common man as to benefit their businesses. Which may eventually lead to ads of hookers on cartoon network (ok, being a bit sarcastic here - but hope you know what I'm talking about. once it's out in the open it spreads).

You can't just say "i'm for legalization of prostitution but don't care about the policies" - you can't just leave it there, the intricacies and semantics very much come to play. It is the policies that make the law. IF I would say yes to prostitution - it'd be so that minimum 2 prostitutes work together and a maximum of five. This will work towards the benefit of the sex workers, and not a profiteering organization. Legalizing is essentially a license to do business in the open - please do take that into consideration. But again, the scenario with 2 or 5 may not work out because there's always a security issue.

Read right below that section where it says this is no longer the case. They have ammended that part of the law. So yes, all have to register, managers and workers alike.

"You do not have to register with the police, or even contact the police, if you wish to be a sex worker in New Zealand. Under the old laws, Massage parlours were required to keep a register of names, with identifying details, which were to be given to the police for inspection “upon request”. In some areas, people working privately had to register with the police before they could advertise in their local newspaper.
This is no longer the case. "

"Up to four sex workers can work together and do not need an Operators Certificate, so long as no one is in charge of anyone else, or working as a boss. If there are more than four sex workers working together, as equals, one will have to apply for an Operators Certificate."

So essentially, four and lesser than can solicit without registering.

If you think because NZ has a smaller population therefore a lesser crime rate you are mistaken. Crime here is just as bad as anywhere else in the world.

My mistake here - a lower population does give the illusion that crime rate is lower. But a lower population does make the number of reported crimes much higher - and this works in favour of the country.

Crime against sex workers though has dropped remarkably since these reforms and I can't see why it wouldn't work anywhere else. In fact it may actually free up resources by not having the police cruise and trap the workers. Just think, they could instead be working on some other crime.

Again, this is just one side of the coin. Yes, the entrapment factor would be lowered but other laws and bylaws come into play here, the police will have to send forces if not to trap workers to protect them. And if there are a huge amount of places of sex work, more resources will be drained.
The problem is when it comes to prostitution, if it is illegal, cameras can be installed to monitor and protect the workers. If it is legalized, the best you can do is employ 'bouncers' like in strip clubs - since cameras would be a violation of privacy. So only after a crime is committed will it be brought to attention.

I have also had a partner who become a working girl, didn't work out for us as it can place a strain on any relationship. But did I think any less or look down on her for doing so? No.

Exactly what I mean when I say prostitutes/call girls WILL not lead a normal life - no matter what you think. We do live in prejudiced society.

The problem is alot of people need to look at the person, not what they do for a living.

Yep, and I doubt that'll change for a long, long time. Again, if this actually happens it means a major change in lifestyle - the question is necessarily be for the good? We are moving towards a future where closets are being broken - a much more liberal future. The problem with liberty is that people tend to mistake it with 'rights of the people.'

Lets try this then. If your mum or sister was going out every night to different bars etc and having sex with random strangers for nothing, would you be ok with that because no money is involved?

You are so asking this to question to the wrong guy - this scenario isn't even thinkable, my mum and dad have been married for 27 years now - but I'll still answer your question - no it wouldn't be ok. Yes, I won't be able to do anything about it, yes it may seem that I'm narrow minded, but no I wouldn't be ok about it and I would let her know what I think about it. Call me the over protective son/brother if you will. But the debate here is if I think prostitution should be legalized and not if prostitution is RIGHT or WRONG, so this question is irrelevant.

[will.i.am]

I actually been thinking about this the past couple days.

And i am troubled that women are trafficked for sexual purposes.
They are kidnapped, drugged and forced to work as prostitutes.
I believe, that prostitution should be legalized to help reduce this terrible, outrageous behavior.. Because, as a hopeful future father, and as a proud uncle of the 2 most beautiful women in my life, i would be destroyed if they were to go missing and end up dead, or worse in a drugged up whore how somewhere in the red light district in India(not bashing India - its a fact).

This is a difficult topic, i hope people can see through this spectrum.