Thread: Primer on Video Formats?

Hi everyone,

I was hoping to leverage the knowledgebase of the T-I community with a problem that I have. I have become completely flummoxed by the proliferation of video formats. I mean, some of the encodes I see are huge--like 16GB or so or even more--and I am wondering what benefit there is to me to go with a file of that size.

I also would like to know more about the relative benefits of the formats on offer. Here's an example of the utter confusion I am currently facing. I am looking at the movie 2012 on a site right now (just for illustration purposes, heard the movie is terrible). Anyway it is available thusly: BluRay 1080p AVC-DTSHDMA (38GB!!!), BluRay1080p x264 (13GB), BRRip x264 (1.6GB), BluRay 1080p DTS-x264 (15GB). BluRay 720p DTS-x264 (9GB), BDRip Xvid (1.4GB), R5 Xvix (1.4GB) and DVDRip Xvid (700MB). I cannot imagine making sense of that alphabet soup.



As far as my specific situation, I am currently streaming video from my Win 7 desktop to my PS3 via the PS3 Media Server program (I use that program because it was easy to set up and transcodes a wide variety of formats), which is in turn hooked up to my 1080p plasma. Anyway, I was hoping some kind person would give me some advice as to what I should be looking for with respect to the dizzying array of formats in order to get the most bang-for-my-buck video quality-wise. I would be most grateful for a pointer to a site with easy to digest info on this subject or if someone wants to write up a quick guide to clear up my confusion that would be great as well.

Thank you!

Well I'd like to try to shed some light on it for you,

First of all , the large 15-40 gb releases you see are pretty much direct rips of the blu ray, either the whole thing, or re-authored down to just the main movie to save space (cutting out extras, menus, and alternate languages).

Now the ones you see labeled as 1080p x264 or 720p x264 or actually encoded from those large blu ray rips down to a more manageable size with a negligible loss in quality. Some to the point to where you could only spot the difference pausing and zooming in on still frames on your computer, and no way in an actually playing video.

Now as for 1080p and 720p, its debatable, even though you have a 1080p TV and support the 1080p file, the difference might not be worth it to you. In fact I remember reading an actually study a group performed once, that stated (not exact here, just going off memory) that you would have to be like within 5 feet of a 50 inch TV to even tell the difference between the two at normal playback speed.

Now the ones you see called BRrips are simply re-encodes of already encoded x264s talked about in the above two paragraphs. Any hardcore encoder or HD enthusiast will tell you that generally an encode of an encode is a bad idea. Compared to the other encodes that were almost transparent (negligible difference between encode and original movie), these will more than likely have at least some difference, of course this is all subjective to your eye, to you, these might seem just as good.

A BRrip at an SD resolution is exactly that, an HD encode, re-encoded down to standard definition size. While technically no longer HD, I can say that it will be superior quality to a regular DVD encode of the same movie. Blu Rays are just better sources, even when put at the same resolution as DVDs.

Lastly, a BDrip is a Blu Ray disk rip encoded to standard definition size, (not re-encoded like BRrips so it's better).

Whew, hope I covered most of your question, as for your PS3, depending on the type and speed of your wireless network, the bigger files might give you trouble and not play back smoothly.

What do I use? 720p x264 encodes all the way!


*edit*

After looking at your original post, I missed a few things. The one labeled 1080p DTS x264 is bigger than just the 1080p x264 because of the audio. The smaller one probably has AC3, unless you have some amazing setup for sound, and the ears of a wolf, its not really worth it. AC3 is only slightly worse at a much smaller size, and greater compatibility with most devices. DTS is pretty much regarded as one of the most inefficient formats out there, quality vs size wise.

xvid is what was used mainly before x264, I'm not really too knowledgeable on this as I've never messed around with or encoded with it. Consider it the bottom tier when you want to download a movie quick just to check it out.

Oh and R5 is a format used overseas, it is released before retail disks here in the states, but is usually lower quality. No point in downloading that if a regular release is available like it is with 2012.

Originally Posted by teh_pwn

Well I'd like to try to shed some light on it for you,

First of all , the large 15-40 gb releases you see are pretty much direct rips of the blu ray, either the whole thing, or re-authored down to just the main movie to save space (cutting out extras, menus, and alternate languages).

Now the ones you see labeled as 1080p x264 or 720p x264 or actually encoded from those large blu ray rips down to a more manageable size with a negligible loss in quality. Some to the point to where you could only spot the difference pausing and zooming in on still frames on your computer, and no way in an actually playing video.

Now as for 1080p and 720p, its debatable, even though you have a 1080p TV and support the 1080p file, the difference might not be worth it to you. In fact I remember reading an actually study a group performed once, that stated (not exact here, just going off memory) that you would have to be like within 5 feet of a 50 inch TV to even tell the difference between the two at normal playback speed.

Now the ones you see called BRrips are simply re-encodes of already encoded x264s talked about in the above two paragraphs. Any hardcore encoder or HD enthusiast will tell you that generally an encode of an encode is a bad idea. Compared to the other encodes that were almost transparent (negligible difference between encode and original movie), these will more than likely have at least some difference, of course this is all subjective to your eye, to you, these might seem just as good.

A BRrip at an SD resolution is exactly that, an HD encode, re-encoded down to standard definition size. While technically no longer HD, I can say that it will be superior quality to a regular DVD encode of the same movie. Blu Rays are just better sources, even when put at the same resolution as DVDs.

Lastly, a BDrip is a Blu Ray disk rip encoded to standard definition size, (not re-encoded like BRrips so it's better).

Whew, hope I covered most of your question, as for your PS3, depending on the type and speed of your wireless network, the bigger files might give you trouble and not play back smoothly.

What do I use? 720p x264 encodes all the way!


*edit*

After looking at your original post, I missed a few things. The one labeled 1080p DTS x264 is bigger than just the 1080p x264 because of the audio. The smaller one probably has AC3, unless you have some amazing setup for sound, and the ears of a wolf, its not really worth it. AC3 is only slightly worse at a much smaller size, and greater compatibility with most devices. DTS is pretty much regarded as one of the most inefficient formats out there, quality vs size wise.

xvid is what was used mainly before x264, I'm not really too knowledgeable on this as I've never messed around with or encoded with it. Consider it the bottom tier when you want to download a movie quick just to check it out.

Oh and R5 is a format used overseas, it is released before retail disks here in the states, but is usually lower quality. No point in downloading that if a regular release is available like it is with 2012.

Very cool! Thank you so much. +rep for you for such a detailed and helpful guide so soon after my post. So as for a bottom line suggestion, you would advise me to check out the 9GB 720p x264 version of the film for best bang-for-the-buck quality, and perhaps compare it to some BDrips (which are better than BRrips due to not being an encode of an encode) to see if I can ascertain a difference in video quality? Is that about right? Also, now that I think of it, would I be better off getting a 32GB USB stick to use for video viewing in my PS3 to avoid network streaming issues?

Thanks again for your help!

Lol, I love these questions you are asking just because its right up my alley.

First off, for the USB stick thing, there is a limitation there with the PS3, It only recognizes FAT32 formatted drives, meaning no movie larger than 4 gigs will fit. Secondly, it will stream mkv, but it won't recognize it natively. So if you want to put your movie on a USB drive or DVD (On a DVD you wouldnt have the 4 gb limitation, assuming you use dual layerd).. to get it to play straight off a USB or DVD you need to convert it to something the PS3 recognizes, meaning probably either a M2TS, MP4, or VOB.

M2TS being the easiest to convert to because it is basically just a one click process and is fast since it doesn't have to re-encode the video. If you search some trackers, they may have releases in either M2TS or MP4 they you can just play without having to mess with them.

Now for your above question.. I can't believe that 720p is 9 gigs, thats huge for a 720p first off. Most are around 6, and I personally do all mine closer to 4 gb (so I can put them on my usb drive) and it still looks just as good.

So I dunno what kind of bandwidth and HD space you are working with here, but I would do this,

If size isn't a problem and you just want to stream your movies or put them on a DVD, then go for 720p.. I'd try to find a smaller release.

Maybe not available on your current trackers, but if you can find 720p and 720p BRrips below 4 gigs you can put them right on a standard DVD or USB drive and play, assuming you convert it or find it already in the right format. Of course you can still stream them without having to convert

Lastly if you want to go small on space but still have reasonable quality, the standard definition BDrips or BRrips are still great. I mean its a noticeable quality loss but still look stunning compared to DVDs. And you could convert and pack them onto a USB drive no problem.

Also, you don't have to get a 32 gig flash, that would be expensive, you can also just use a standard USB hard drive, say a 500 gig and format it as FAT32 and it work just the same, and hold a lot more movies :D

Originally Posted by teh_pwn

Lol, I love these questions you are asking just because its right up my alley.

First off, for the USB stick thing, there is a limitation there with the PS3, It only recognizes FAT32 formatted drives, meaning no movie larger than 4 gigs will fit. Secondly, it will stream mkv, but it won't recognize it natively. So if you want to put your movie on a USB drive or DVD (On a DVD you wouldnt have the 4 gb limitation, assuming you use dual layerd).. to get it to play straight off a USB or DVD you need to convert it to something the PS3 recognizes, meaning probably either a M2TS, MP4, or VOB.

M2TS being the easiest to convert to because it is basically just a one click process and is fast since it doesn't have to re-encode the video. If you search some trackers, they may have releases in either M2TS or MP4 they you can just play without having to mess with them.

Now for your above question.. I can't believe that 720p is 9 gigs, thats huge for a 720p first off. Most are around 6, and I personally do all mine closer to 4 gb (so I can put them on my usb drive) and it still looks just as good.

So I dunno what kind of bandwidth and HD space you are working with here, but I would do this,

If size isn't a problem and you just want to stream your movies or put them on a DVD, then go for 720p.. I'd try to find a smaller release.

Maybe not available on your current trackers, but if you can find 720p and 720p BRrips below 4 gigs you can put them right on a standard DVD or USB drive and play, assuming you convert it or find it already in the right format. Of course you can still stream them without having to convert

Lastly if you want to go small on space but still have reasonable quality, the standard definition BDrips or BRrips are still great. I mean its a noticeable quality loss but still look stunning compared to DVDs. And you could convert and pack them onto a USB drive no problem.

Also, you don't have to get a 32 gig flash, that would be expensive, you can also just use a standard USB hard drive, say a 500 gig and format it as FAT32 and it work just the same, and hold a lot more movies :D

This is fantastic stuff, thank you. Let me see if I get this straight (and I apologize if this is simple stuff for you). If I wanted to go a non-streaming route, presumably I could either burn the files to a DVD (a dual layer can hold up to 8.5 GB if I recall correctly) or use a FAT32 formatted drive. However, so formatted, no single file can be larger than 4GB? If I did go the USB drive route, I'd need to convert .mkv files to M2TS, which judging by your response could be done relatively easily and without reencoding the video. Post-conversion, the file would still need to be <4GB to work. Sound about right?

BTW, I assure you that the 2012 720p 264 file I was looking at clocks in at 9GB (well, 8.8). I checked your intro and you are also a member of this particular tracker, so you could take a look if you wanted to (it is the movie tracker that is hyper-sensitive about publicity). Actually, I just re-checked and saw that it had DTS sound encoding, which I believe you noted earlier was inefficient size-to-benefitwise.

If I might ask, in your opinion, which tracker(s) are the best bets to find HD movie encodes as you prefer them (i.e., best bets to find 720p encodes at a reasonable size+quality encode and good selection and such)? Again, thanks for your input--quite helpful.

Well did some looking for you, if you want to go the external HD route, on the big HD sites for most movies its going to be hard to find them under 4 gigs, meaning you would have to go dual layer or stream. Especially when you consider the fact that M2TS is a heftier container and converting movies to it actually adds ~200 or so MB, meaning the movie would have to be like 3.7-3.8 GB.

Since most HD sites don't have this scenario in mind, they are more about huge bitrates even as the gain becomes minimal. Perhaps there is some other trackers out there that I'm not a member of that has them, but none of my HD sites do. Now general trackers gave me quite a few hits for less than 4 gig 720p, rather it be a direct encode, or a brrip from another encode, even on a longer movie like 2012 I got plenty of results. Looked at IPT and TL just to get an idea.

But yea, avoid DTS, not only is it not worth the space imo, but it will cause you problems in converting to a ps3 friendly format unless you are streaming.

Thing is, I actually do my own personal encodes that I've started releasing because it seems like they fill a niche in the BT world. They are MP4, 720p, AAC audio, under 4 gigs, which is absolutely ideal for PS3, however I dunno if there are many other than mine out there.


*edit*

Looked on Demonoid, and there was a few guys who had been releasing HD MP4s intended for PS3, but the quality was questionable looking over the stats, don't think the guy knows quite what he is doing :P

There is also another tracker I believe may have a selection, but I'm not a member yet, called VideoSeed, I know they specialize in MP4, but dunno if they also have 720p MP4, I'd like to find out though, heh.

But if you are set on using a hard drive plugged directly in, I'd try the general trackers or perhaps do some more looking around for smaller sized encodes, I can look too later when I'm not tied up studying. Or just go with the standard definition brrips which are abundant on the tracker you mentioned thanks to their internal encode team.

Got it, thanks for checking. Maybe I'll stick with streaming for the time being and see if I run into persistent network issues, and get a modest external HDD for archival purposes. I definitely hear you on the law of diminishing marginal returns--I have a few friends with $20K or so sunk in sound systems and they certainly sound great, but I honestly don't hear much difference from their setups and ones for 1/10th the cost (yes, I understand there are a host of variables when it comes to sound fidelity before the audiophiles attack :)) Also, very neat that you do your own encodes and from what I've learned tonight there is definitely an unfilled niche and you clearly have a passion for the subject.