Thread: Opinions about the war in Iraq.

Originally Posted by an5555

There have polls from respected companies. Each poll shows us that it is not some small amount of Muslims who subscribe to terrorism. The numbers range from 25% to 90% depending on which Middle East country you are in. Seriously, the low here is Turkey @ 25%. Data from the U.S. shows that 25% of the Muslims living in the U.S. condone suicide terroristic bombing.

When you cite polls and don't give sources, you make baby jesus cry.



I would suspect you would find a similar number (25%) sympathizing with "terrorists" if you polled just about any country that wasn't the USA. I think US citizens sometimes have a very hard time understanding how much they're hated through out the world. It probably speaks to how little they understand American foreign policy.

Its amazing how religion is such a big hypnotic influence.
Greatly created, extraordinary told, deeply believed.

And 3 out of every 4 wars are religion generated.


LETS GET OUT OF THERE, we are spending too much money.

Lol... you guys are funny. Since you guys think I am making stuff up, I will make sure that this post has sources. OK, first, let's talk about the polls. One of the polls was from Pew Research (one of, if not the most, respected polls out there), done in 2002 that polled close to 40,000 Muslims in various Islamic countries asking whether suicide bombing was justified. Look it up. Oh and let me correct an error in my original post. The lowest was not 25%... it was 20%. Yes, still 1/5 of the people polled in the most moderate Islamic country, Turkey, believed that suicide bombing was justified.

Also, I love the "misunderstanding" excuse concerning the Qur'an. Please, enlighten me as to where you get the notion that the Qur'an is not about imperialism and violence toward non-Muslims. And please, also enlighten me on where you get the notion that the Qur'an doesn't justify terroristic acts. Let me guess which verses you will use.... hmmm.... perhaps you will use 2:190 which states, "Fight for the sake of God those that fight against you but do not attack them first. God does not love aggressors." Or maybe you will quote 2:256 which states, "There is no compulsion in religion." There are a couple others that you may want to quote as well. Go ahead. For each one you quote, I have 10 examples of hate, violence, and imperialism to every one non-violent, anti-terrorist quote that you can manage to come up with.

Let's take a look at hate. Why is there hate towards non-Muslims? The Qur'an has an answer. "They will not cease to fight against you until they force you to renounce your faith." (2:217) "The unbelievers (meaning any non-Muslim, non-Jew, and non-Christian, not just atheists) will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin." (3:118) If you really want, I can come up with about 25 more of these. It's clear that the Qur'an shows non-Muslims to be hostile.This generates fear and hostility.

It can be said that the Qur'an has sympathy for Jews and Christians. You could even come up with a few verses that support that theory. But once again, there are too many verses that show different. "You may see many among them (them meaning People of the Book, more specifically, Jews and Christians) making friends with the unbelievers. Evil is that to which their souls prompt them... evil were their deeds." (5:81) "Believers, take neither the Jews or Christians as your friend... whoever of you seeks their friendship will become one of their number." (5:51) Again, I can produce at least 25 more similar passages if you really want. The Qur'an shows even the Jews and Christians (who the Qur'an is supposedly sympathetic to) as evil.

What about violence? "Slay them (unbelievers) whereever you find them" (2:190) "I (God) shall cast terror into the heart of the unbelievers... strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers." (8:12) "Fight against those whom the scriptures were given (Jews and Christians)... until they pay tribute out their hand and are utterly subdued." (9:29) "Make war on them (unbelievers) until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (8:39) "When the sacred months are over (any time not during Ramadan), slay the idolaters (referring to non-Muslims) whereever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush for them everywhere." (9:5) I'm willing to wager that I can produce at least 50 or 60 more passages like these. Muslim apologists have tried to make excuses for many of these different verses. However, at some point, the excuses must stop. One or two passages are excusable.... close to one hundred is not.

I am not saying that all Muslims subscribe to terrorist ideology. In fact, it could be argued that the Old Testament of the Bible is just as offensive in some areas. I am, however, saying that the Qur'an can easily justify terrorism in most aspects, and it definitely does not convey peace or love to its readers. Even the notion of suicide bombing is debatable. There is one (yes, only a single one) passage that condemns suicide. However, there are about 20 others that say that dying for God will gain you forgiveness for all your sins. To say that the Qur'an promotes peace and love is a laughable proposition.

Oh yeah, let's not forget the Hadith. Anyone who studies or practices Islam surely knows what the Hadiths are. The Hadiths are 10x worse than the Qur'an is in terms of violence, hate, and imperialism. I'm tired of typing so maybe I will post some Hadith quotes later on when I have some more motivation.

Keep it on topic people. This thread is about your opinion on whether the U.S. should pull out of there or not, and yes, Islam is relative to this subject but it isn't the subject matter.

Edit: sorry Signus, you snuck your post in just before mine.

Originally Posted by an5555

Lol... you guys are funny. Since you guys think I am making stuff up, I will make sure that this post has sources. OK, first, let's talk about the polls. One of the polls was from Pew Research (one of, if not the most, respected polls out there), done in 2002 that polled close to 40,000 Muslims in various Islamic countries asking whether suicide bombing was justified. Look it up. Oh and let me correct an error in my original post. The lowest was not 25%... it was 20%. Yes, still 1/5 of the people polled in the most moderate Islamic country, Turkey, believed that suicide bombing was justified.

Is it too difficult to offer a link to the source that you're citing? I'm not going to play guessing games with you.

From reading your posts, it seems to me you're trying to imply that "terrorism" is the result of Islam. Now far be it from me as an atheist and an anti-theist to defend any religion, but you're only looking at a small part of the picture. Judaism and Christianity have just as much of a role to play in the violence as Islam does. Israel is crushing and occupying a sovereign people against every international treaty and law made in regard to the creation of Israel. America is ensuring that this is possible by vetoing any international sanctions against Israel and providing Israel with enormous amounts of military aid (including the bomb). Why? Because god gave Israel to the jews, and from the perspective of christians, jesus can not return until the jews go back to Israel. In fulfilling this prophecy the muslims get screwed in the ass. There're three sides to this coin.

BTW, I hope you realize that I can go punch for punch with you on scripture quotes. Islam = Judaism = Christianity = Evil.

Out of respect for my old buddy, signus, I will refrain from saying anything else about Islam in particular. I did find some of your assumptions about me being sympathetic toward Christianity/Judaism a little offensive though, as that had nothing to do with what I said, or maybe I just misinterpreted what exactly you were trying to say. I wasn't trying to make the Christians or Jews out to be the good guys. Those are words you are putting into my mouth.


If you want to discuss this further, you can PM me.

As far as the war, I really don't care to get into a debate about it. I only originally posted in this thread to respond to justjenna's claim that Islam is a religion based on peace and love.

Oh and one other thing....

Originally Posted by s2cuts

From reading your posts, it seems to me you're trying to imply that "terrorism" is the result of Islam.

Your assumption is incorrect. I was not saying that Islam is the sole cause of terrorism. The point that I was trying to make was again in response to the claim that Islam is a religion based on peace and love. I was simply showing that terrorism could easily be justified by the teachings of Islam, which contradicts the claim of peace and love being attributes of the Islamic faith. I know there are other causes of terrorism. I also know that terrorism doesn't correlate to Muslims. There's a lot of terrorism throughout the world and throughout history that has nothing to do with Islam. Even in Islamic terrorism, there are other factors besides the Qur'an. I get that.

Anyway, since I have no desire to discuss the war, this will be my last post in this thread. If you have any further responses or arguments, please PM me instead of posting here as I won't be actively visiting this thread. Thanks.



Originally Posted by an5555

...Your assumption is incorrect. I was not saying that Islam is the sole cause of terrorism. The point that I was trying to make was again in response to the claim that Islam is a religion based on peace and love...

Thanks for your clarification. But, I think based on your one sided lambasting of Islam and the context of the thread, my assumption was fair. From the substance of your posts, you didn’t sound like an equal opportunity critic of religion. In fact, the absence of any critique of Christianity and Judaism towards the violence in that region, implied to me that you think that Islam is the root of the conflict.

To be clear, a discussion on “terror” is very relevant to the topic of the Iraqi war. After all the Iraqi war was sold based in large part on the lie that Iraq was helping “terrorists" (Al Quida). What none of your posts acknowledged was the role of all the major religions towards the violence in that region. You talked a lot about how well the Qur’an fit with “terror" and suicide bombing without any mention to the role of Christianity and Judaism in the conflict. And lets not forget that this is not strictly an ideological conflict. There are resources, land, strategic territories up for grabs too. The term “terror” is very often used as code for Islamic violence. To try, in essence, to scapegoat Islam for all the problems in that region. That is simply not the case, and I try, when I can, to rebut those ideas.

As an aside, if this were a discussion based on religion, then I would tend to agree with you. And I would happily throw Judaism and Christianity on the pyre as well. But then again, I'm just a filthy atheist.

I think Signus made it clear that this conversation has veered too far off topic. While we have acknowledged that the topic of Islam does contain some relevance to the war, it is not the subject matter. The topic is whether the United States and its allies should pull out of Iraq - and not whether Muslim, Christianity, or Judaism is responsible for what is happening.

Please do not hijack this thread. As anon5555 said, take it to PM or another thread. Further conversation in this thread (regarding Islam as a religion) will result in deleted posts and/or infractions.


P.S. The Thanks that Signus attached to your post was a mistake.

I think the first thing to say is those are rather leading answer options aren't they? You're sorta guiding people towards the get out of there option. We, (the British) have already pulled out of Iraq, though mind you the press didn't make much of it, we are now only fighting Afghans, which is much better.

What you should remember is Saddam Hussein was a bastard and at least he's gone.