Thread: Will Barack Obama change America? Give your opinion here.

Well it's been fun but I guess this is it for me :(

my apologies to everyone else this is not meant to harm anyone and is specifically directed at s2cuts.

@s2cuts

I'm sick to death of people like you who just can't seem to S*H* and let someone else have their own opinions.

The only input that you've had in this thread is to attack people and their opinions, you've offered no meaningful contribution of your own, why is that.

I think that you're an absolute ***** and should have an extra glass of S*H* every morning until the day you cease to be a *****; it might help you to at least appear to be human. Go back to your great white north you arrogant, holier than thou ***** and learn a little something before you go off berating people for their opinions. You don't have to agree with my point of view but you certainly should be more respectful of it because your disrespect is what brings us to this point.

You call people names like lunatic, dittohead and then make blanket statments like americans are victims of their ignorance...wow! How morally and intellectually superior you must feel when you see us poor stupid Americans who don't have a clue about what's going on in the real world. Thank God we have people like you to enlighten us!

You talk about the polls and what Americans want, you're talking out of your butt, the polls show that Obama is dropping like a rock and the upcoming elections will show that we, the American people, have no confidence in congress as a whole, note that I said BOTH sides of the isle in my OP not just dems.

I have no problem with you having an opinion but you can't seem to let someone else have one that differs from yours without trying to belittle them and call them names like a 12 year old child, you're not a 12 year old child are you s2cuts? Your aggressive demeanor is evidenced by your responses and repeated badgering of those who have disagreed with you so far, I've qutoted some of your kind words at the bottom of this post.

At the end of the day you and people like you are the problem with my country s2cuts and every time people like you make stupid statements like the ones that you've made here it just widens the rift between us. That's ok though because the only thing you're doing is showing people like me how very ****** you are and that you're not worth talking to. BTW there was a healthcare summit and Obama is trying to get congress to pass some reforms quickly, reforms which we have clearly rejected.



"If I thought you were exercising your own brain rather than regurgitating someone elses' thoughts, I wouldn't be this harsh."


I fully expect you to respond but rest assured that I've said what I need to say and I don't repeat myself in petty matters such as this so you can take my dittohead nonsense along with my American ignorance and cram it up your 2cuts.

See some of your posts here and see if you can understand why I think you're an ***.

Originally Posted by s2cuts

Jeez... Fringe propaganda at its finest. People like this are the reason why I wonder if the US will ever resolve their internal conflicts.

Originally Posted by s2cuts

Of course people will have differing opinions, but then there's fringe lunatics like you. What you presented had nothing to do with an opinion on policy, but just propagandist, false, alarmist statements. In my view, you're what's bad for your country. You're the mouse to the pied piper. You're the puppet to the puppet master. If I thought you were exercising your own brain, I wouldn't be this harsh.

Originally Posted by s2cuts

Obama hasn't changed anything? Are you sure?

Originally Posted by s2cuts

BTW, the only person making an issue of his skin color seems to be you. You backwards racist you.

Originally Posted by s2cuts

Oh SomeoneElse, I think you're crazy, but that's just me. ;-) I always get a kick out of listening to right minded people hiding behind libertarianism. Claiming to be independent as they frame their arguments in favor of their clear bias. It's like listening to someone who has some strange schizophrenic split personality disorder.

Originally Posted by s2cuts

Above are the only two identifiable policy criticisms you made and they are both completely baseless. Firstly, healthcare reform was tabled almost a year ago, it's not being rushed or crammed in any way. That's just ditto head nonsense. Also, polling shows that the majority of people are in favor of healthcare reform once the proposed law has been explained to them. Unfortunately, US citizens are victims to their own ignorance.

Originally Posted by s2cuts

Secondly, every economist in the world, except for a few of the most bitterly partisan ones on the right inside of the US, agree that both the bailout and the stimulus needed to happen to avoid a cataclysm in the world economy. The GWB administration was responsible for setting record high deficits, and were the ones who took their eye off the ball with respect to the banking sector's behavior that caused the melt down. They were also the ones who initiated the bail out, and by extension are responsible for the cleanup afterwards.

You need to stop watching Fox dude. That station will turn your brain into mush.

Originally Posted by NaM3L3SS

I'm sick to death of people like you who just can't seem to S*H* and let someone else have their own opinions.

The only input that you've had in this thread is to attack people and their opinions, you've offered no meaningful contribution of your own, why is that.

That's ridiculous. I'm not stopping you from having an opinion, I'm attacking your ideas. My reply to your previous post is a perfect example of an in bounds counter to the claims you made. Trying to caricature me as the forum villain is not going to help you defend your argument. I encourage everyone to not fall into the trap of reading only the short highlighted sections produced by NaM3L3SS, but to try and take the whole statement in the context which it was given, which would require you to go back and read in sequence.

Originally Posted by NaM3L3SS

I think that you're an absolute ***** and should have an extra glass of S*H* every morning until the day you cease to be a *****; it might help you to at least appear to be human. Go back to your great white north you arrogant, holier than thou ***** and learn a little something before you go off berating people for their opinions.

If you were curious as to what out of bounds was, read above. NaM3L3SS, if you really wanted to have a conversation you should have countered my argument, or at least asked me to elaborate on something you didn't understand or found offensive. I would be more than happy to do so. If what you wanted was to not be challenged... too bad.

s2cuts
Firstly, healthcare reform was tabled almost a year ago, it's not being rushed or crammed in any way. That's just ditto head nonsense.

The Obama administration has been trying VERY hard on passing this bill. and time and time again the American people have said that they dont want what Obama is proposing.
BUT, Obama feels that his presidency hinges on them passing this bill. So they will continue to try hard to get it passed, regardless of what the American people have to say about it.
Do we (the American people) want health care reform...Yes. Because its getting to expensive. But we dont want the government to take control of it. Their are a bunch of things we should be working on to get the costs down, but thats not what interest Barack Obama...he wants to the the guy who finally gets this to pass...all 7 presidents who have tried it so far, failed.

-s2cuts- Please name ONE government run program that is actually doing a good job...

s2cuts
Secondly, every economist in the world, except for a few of the most bitterly partisan ones on the right inside of the US, agree that both the bailout and the stimulus needed to happen to avoid a cataclysm in the world economy.

The Bailout and stimulus was one of the most Un-American things I have ever witnessed. Its called capitalism, and you clearly dont seem to know what that means, and how it works.
Their is NO SUCH THING AS TO BIG TO FAIL. If you run your company into the ground...I dont care who you are or what you do or build, you shouldn't get a penny from the tax payers!

s2cuts
The GWB administration was responsible for setting record high deficits

Yes and No.
The Bush administration did set high deficits...But you cant call them record high anymore, as Obama has surpassed Bush when it comes to spending money like theirs no tomorrow.

s2cuts
and were the ones who took their eye off the ball with respect to the banking sector's behavior that caused the melt down. They were also the ones who initiated the bail out, and by extension are responsible for the cleanup afterwards.

The Bush administration was not a very good one...on a scale of 1-10, I'd rate them a 5, I'd (so far) rate Obama a 2.
The whole banking fiasco was all started because of houses, the sub-prime mortgages. This was all initially started under Clinton (read this), But still, Bush should have done something.

s2cuts
You need to stop watching Fox dude. That station will turn your brain into mush.

judging by what you have said thus far, I think its you who needs to start watching FOX...

Torrent User #119, thank you for your civil responce, NaM3L3SS take note.

Originally Posted by Torrent User #119

The Obama administration has been trying VERY hard on passing this bill. and time and time again the American people have said that they dont want what Obama is proposing.
BUT, Obama feels that his presidency hinges on them passing this bill. So they will continue to try hard to get it passed, regardless of what the American people have to say about it.
Do we (the American people) want health care reform...Yes. Because its getting to expensive. But we dont want the government to take control of it. Their are a bunch of things we should be working on to get the costs down, but thats not what interest Barack Obama...he wants to the the guy who finally gets this to pass...all 7 presidents who have tried it so far, failed.

You make two points here. First that people don't want what Obama is proposing as law, and second that people don't want the government to take control of health care.

Firstly, Obama campaigned on healthcare reform, and was given a huge mandate by the people (historic majorities in the House and the Senate). Trying to suggest that he does not have the support of the people on health care reform does not jive with reality. A few tea party kooks do not speak for the majority of Americans.

Secondly, it is a commonly held falsehood on the right that the currently proposed health care reform is a take over of health care by government. This is demonstrably false. Medicare and Medicaid are examples of government run health care programs. Government administered and government financed. The current proposed health care bill in no way tries to take the place of the private system that is in place.

As an aside, the rest of the industrialized world has some form of universal health care run by their governments. This bill would still exclude the US from being include on this map. Just checkout the great company kept by the US as they stubbornly refuse to join the rest of the civilized world.

Originally Posted by Torrent User #119

-s2cuts- Please name ONE government run program that is actually doing a good job...

Medicare and Medicaid, just to keep the discussion on point. Both of those programs out perform the private sector in terms of coverage and cost. I could go on.

Originally Posted by Torrent User #119

The Bailout and stimulus was one of the most Un-American things I have ever witnessed. Its called capitalism, and you clearly dont seem to know what that means, and how it works.
Their is NO SUCH THING AS TO BIG TO FAIL. If you run your company into the ground...I dont care who you are or what you do or build, you shouldn't get a penny from the tax payers!

"Its called capitalism" What the hell are you talking about? The US like every other country in the world has a hybrid system, which includes both capitalistic and socialistic elements. If what you're saying is that the big banks should never have been allowed to get that large, then I would agree with you. If what you're saying is that the big banks should have been allowed to fail, you're alone. Economists world wide agree, the bailout and the stimulus needed to happen. Many of them say that not enough was done.

Originally Posted by Torrent User #119

Yes and No.
The Bush administration did set high deficits...But you cant call them record high anymore, as Obama has surpassed Bush when it comes to spending money like theirs no tomorrow.

The Bush administration was not a very good one...on a scale of 1-10, I'd rate them a 5, I'd (so far) rate Obama a 2.
The whole banking fiasco was all started because of houses, the sub-prime mortgages. This was all initially started under Clinton (read this), But still, Bush should have done something.

It's just so silly. Obama's been in power for little more than a year and he's the problem? It's like blaming the new tenant for the damage caused by the old tenant. You can not hold the current administration responsible for what was, by your own admission (although deregulation started in the Reagan era, not the Clinton's), "all initially started" by a different administration.

Originally Posted by Torrent User #119

judging by what you have said thus far, I think its you who needs to start watching FOX...

I do, but it's for the laughs. And Fox is not news, it's opinion.

s2cuts
Firstly, Obama campaigned on healthcare reform, and was given a huge mandate by the people (historic majorities in the House and the Senate). Trying to suggest that he does not have the support of the people on health care reform does not jive with reality. A few tea party kooks do not speak for the majority of Americans.

If Obama had the support you claim he has, it would have passed months ago...he couldn't even get this disastrous bill passed when he had a a super majority in congress.
What I find stunning is that you want this health care bill to pass even though you dont even know whats in it!
BTW, the reason Obama got elected has nothing to do with his horrid policies of is (lack of) knowledge. He was elected president because their is far to many people in America with their head in the sand, people who simply dont care about politics.
He had 2 things going for him, he was black, and he wasn't Bush.
I consider myself a member of the Tea Party, I don go to any rallies or anything, But I stand where they stand on policies...which is the same stance as the founders of this great nation. The government has gotton WAY to big, its time we the people, shrink it down to its proper size. Less Government = more Liberty.

s2cuts
Secondly, it is a commonly held falsehood on the right that the currently proposed health care reform is a take over of health care by government. This is demonstrably false. Medicare and Medicaid are examples of government run health care programs. Government administered and government financed. The current proposed health care bill in no way tries to take the place of the private system that is in place.

Really you actually believe that...
If this bill passes, it wont be but a few years before all health insurance companies close shop. Not to mention that the government will have the ability to determine if your life is fiscally worth saving.

s2cuts
As an aside, the rest of the industrialized world has some form of universal health care run by their governments. This bill would still exclude the US from being include on this map. Just checkout the great company kept by the US as they stubbornly refuse to join the rest of the civilized world.

Soo...
If everybody else jumped off a cliff you would to?
I dont care what the rest of the world is doing. The rest of the world has actually believed Al Gore, Global Warming has been once of the biggest hoax's every, and far to many people believe its actually true.

Medicare and Medicaid, just to keep the discussion on point. Both of those programs out perform the private sector in terms of coverage and cost. I could go on.

Medicaid is a joke, its promotes not trying hard and remain poor, just like social security, and welfare, and unemployment benefits.
FYI, Medicare and Medicade are going bankrupt, along with Social Security...good example.
For some reason people dont seem to Hate Ponzi Schemes when people like Bernie Madoff do them, but the government gets away with running multiple Ponzi Schemes daily, try and figure that out.
BTW, If health care is apparent so urgent to get get passed, why is it not going to kick in until 2013? Oddly a year after the presidential elections...

s2cuts
"Its called capitalism" What the hell are you talking about? The US like every other country in the world has a hybrid system, which includes both capitalistic and socialistic elements. If what you're saying is that the big banks should never have been allowed to get that large, then I would agree with you. If what you're saying is that the big banks should have been allowed to fail, you're alone. Economists world wide agree, the bailout and the stimulus needed to happen.

America needs to be brought back to where capitalism shines. Which means VERY limited government oversight. Yes, the Big Banks (AIG) should have been allowed to fail, along with GM, and any other privately owned company that cant get their books in the black. And No, just because to like to say "economist world wide agree" doesn't make that statement true, unless you add "lberal" before that phrase.

s2cuts
Many of them say that not enough was done.

Not Enough Was Done!
Are you serious! Maybe we should increase the money we give them...lets just call up the Feds and tell them to print another trillion.
After all were only 12.5 trillion in the whole, and thats not counting un-funded promised liabilities.

s2cuts
It's just so silly. Obama's been in power for little more than a year and he's the problem? It's like blaming the new tenant for the damage caused by the old tenant. You can not hold the current administration responsible for what was, by your own admission (although deregulation started in the Reagan era, not the Clinton's), "all initially started" by a different administration.Quote:

look, theirs no denying that Bush overall was not a great president, But Obama is worse.
I dont know why you think the government can run anything smoothly, their track record shows the exact opposite.
Obama said a lot of things that were flat out lies to get elected.
-Close down Guantanamo............nope
-Bring all the troops home............nope
-Transparency to all the bills passed, so that the American people can have 5 days to view them all online before the get voted on..........nope
Those are just a few of Obama's broken promises.

In 2012 when the a new crop of people run for the job, I will be voting for which ever one believes in the same thing I do...The US Constitution.

Originally Posted by Torrent User #119

If Obama had the support you claim he has, it would have passed months ago...he couldn't even get this disastrous bill passed when he had a a super majority in congress.
What I find stunning is that you want this health care bill to pass even though you dont even know whats in it!
BTW, the reason Obama got elected has nothing to do with his horrid policies of is (lack of) knowledge. He was elected president because their is far to many people in America with their head in the sand, people who simply dont care about politics.
He had 2 things going for him, he was black, and he wasn't Bush.
I consider myself a member of the Tea Party, I don go to any rallies or anything, But I stand where they stand on policies...which is the same stance as the founders of this great nation. The government has gotton WAY to big, its time we the people, shrink it down to its proper size. Less Government = more Liberty.

Yes, he was absolutely given a mandate by the people. Democracy's a bitch isn't it? Why is passage of the bill difficult? Partisan politics.

Originally Posted by Torrent User #119

Really you actually believe that...
If this bill passes, it wont be but a few years before all health insurance companies close shop. Not to mention that the government will have the ability to determine if your life is fiscally worth saving.

Cool. I haven't seen this particular rhetoric in a while. After all, it's been debunked time and time again. Do you really believe that the Democrats want to kill grandma? I don't think anyone's fooled by this anymore. Can you show any evidence that your statement is true?

Originally Posted by Torrent User #119

Soo...
If everybody else jumped off a cliff you would to?
I dont care what the rest of the world is doing. The rest of the world has actually believed Al Gore, Global Warming has been once of the biggest hoax's every, and far to many people believe its actually true.

You're trying to compare universal health care to jumping off a cliff? Really? The last stat I saw, came from the WHO, and it pegged US health care at 37th world wide. I think you're the one jumping off the cliff. And global warming is a hoax? I don't need to rebut this.

Originally Posted by Torrent User #119

Medicaid is a joke, its promotes not trying hard and remain poor, just like social security, and welfare, and unemployment benefits.
FYI, Medicare and Medicade are going bankrupt, along with Social Security...good example.
For some reason people dont seem to Hate Ponzi Schemes when people like Bernie Madoff do them, but the government gets away with running multiple Ponzi Schemes daily, try and figure that out.
BTW, If health care is apparent so urgent to get get passed, why is it not going to kick in until 2013? Oddly a year after the presidential elections...

Oh yeah now it's getting fun, fuck those poor people! Anyway, Medicare and Medicaid are successful because the cost of care is less than the cost of care in the private sector. In the end, the dollars all come from the same place, your pocket, and it's always better to get more and pay less.

Originally Posted by Torrent User #119

America needs to be brought back to where capitalism shines. Which means VERY limited government oversight. Yes, the Big Banks (AIG) should have been allowed to fail, along with GM, and any other privately owned company that cant get their books in the black. And No, just because to like to say "economist world wide agree" doesn't make that statement true, unless you add "lberal" before that phrase.

As much as I agree with your sentiment. Collapsing your economy and sending the US into another great depression just to spite those that made the mistakes is not wise, moral, or ethical. Also, many other countries depend on the US economy, namely mine (we have a huge trade surplus with the US, huge for us anyway).

Originally Posted by Torrent User #119

Not Enough Was Done!
Are you serious! Maybe we should increase the money we give them...lets just call up the Feds and tell them to print another trillion.
After all were only 12.5 trillion in the whole, and thats not counting un-funded promised liabilities.

Yup. Krugman for example. I'm not denying that there is controversy over the stimulus, but that's mostly to do with how it's allocated. Both sides knew there was a need for stimulus spending.

Originally Posted by Torrent User #119

look, theirs no denying that Bush overall was not a great president, But Obama is worse.
I dont know why you think the government can run anything smoothly, their track record shows the exact opposite.
Obama said a lot of things that were flat out lies to get elected.
-Close down Guantanamo............nope
-Bring all the troops home............nope
-Transparency to all the bills passed, so that the American people can have 5 days to view them all online before the get voted on..........nope
Those are just a few of Obama's broken promises.

Lies? Awesome. So I guess it's true what they say about politicians.

Originally Posted by Torrent User #119

In 2012 when the a new crop of people run for the job, I will be voting for which ever one believes in the same thing I do...The US Constitution.

So what are you saying? That there's actually a chance that you'd vote for Obama? Right, sure. Listen, if there ever was a two term president Barak Obama is it. Expect to gain back some seats in the house and the senate on this cycle, but forget about the white house. Seriously, who have you got? Romney, ok. Who else? Palin? Don't make me laugh. Cheney? Please.

s2cuts
Yes, he was absolutely given a mandate by the people. Democracy's a bitch isn't it? Why is passage of the bill difficult? Partisan politics.

Wrong again. Do you know what the super majority even is? Obama had it for over a year, he couldn't (and still cant) even get his own party to go along with this crap legislation. The Dems are whining now because Kennedy died and they lost their beloved filibuster proof super majority.

s2cuts
Do you really believe that the Democrats want to kill grandma? I don't think anyone's fooled by this anymore. Can you show any evidence that your statement is true?

I cannot. But its what I believe. I will never assume that the government is doing Anything on my behalf.

s2cuts
The last stat I saw, came from the WHO, and it pegged US health care at 37th world wide. I think you're the one jumping off the cliff.

So because its one of the few area's where the US isn't leading the charge we should just hand over 1/6 of the economy to the federal government. Their are things we can do to get better and cheaper health care, and they don't involve having the governments hands in our pockets.

s2cuts
And global warming is a hoax? I don't need to rebut this.

well, we may not agree on health care, but at least we agree on this.

s2cuts
Oh yeah now it's getting fun, fuck those poor people! Anyway, Medicare and Medicaid are successful because the cost of care is less than the cost of care in the private sector. In the end, the dollars all come from the same place, your pocket, and it's always better to get more and pay less.

If your poor, 99.9% of the time its your fault. For poor people to get rich their needs to be incentives, but giving them money for doing nothing encourages them to continue doing nothing.
Medicare & Medicaid (and Social Security) are NOT successful. They will be Bankrupt by 2017...that's just 7 years! again, its a Ponzi Scheme...as long as you have more people paying in then collecting, its afforable...But once that trend goes the oppisite direction (IE:baby boomers getting old) you begin your slide to bankruptcy.

s2cuts
As much as I agree with your sentiment. Collapsing your economy and sending the US into another great depression just to spite those that made the mistakes is not wise, moral, or ethical. Also, many other countries depend on the US economy, namely mine (we have a huge trade surplus with the US, huge for us anyway).

Its not to spite anyone, you have to hit the bottom to truly learn from your mistakes. The government should have NO say in how you run your business.

s2cuts
Yup. Krugman for example. I'm not denying that there is controversy over the stimulus, but that's mostly to do with how it's allocated. Both sides knew there was a need for stimulus spending.

Thats wrong, both sides Didn't agree.
here's a list of all the wasteful spending that went into that disastrous bill.
That's just one of the many reasons this country needs a Tea Party conservative in the White House.

s2cuts
Lies? Awesome. So I guess it's true what they say about politicians.

Yeah, politicians lie all the time, its something that needs to change.

s2cuts
So what are you saying? That there's actually a chance that you'd vote for Obama? Right, sure. Listen, if there ever was a two term president Barak Obama is it. Expect to gain back some seats in the house and the senate on this cycle, but forget about the white house. Seriously, who have you got? Romney, ok. Who else? Palin? Don't make me laugh. Cheney? Please.

No, I wouldn't vote for Obama because I know where the guy stands on issues. If you mean would I vote for a democrat, that answer is yes. IF he believed in the same things that me, and the founders believed in.
If there ever WASN"T a 2 term president, Obama is it.
Your right, I do believe the republicans will gain seats in both houses.
Palin might be a good candidate one day...but when that day comes, she wont be good lookin anymore, she needs to learn a lot more before she would stand a chance in getting my vote.
Romney was actually who I wanted to win...Unfortunately the left wing republican John McCain got the spot.
Nearly every bill Obama passes, he's spitting into the faces of people like: Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Franklin, Madison, Adams, Coolidge, etc.

And last but not least, while we disagree on almost everything, I'm impressed with your knowledge of my country, Do you pay that much attention to Canada's politics too?
That said, you have been clearly fed left-wing propaganda your whole life.

Originally Posted by Torrent User #119

Wrong again. Do you know what the super majority even is? Obama had it for over a year, he couldn't (and still cant) even get his own party to go along with this crap legislation. The Dems are whining now because Kennedy died and they lost their beloved filibuster proof super majority.

So let me get this straight, you're saying the article, from the AP, is false? I encourage people to read the link and figure out for themselves who's right.

Originally Posted by Torrent User #119

I cannot. But its what I believe. I will never assume that the government is doing Anything on my behalf.

This goes back to my original statement that "US citizens are victims to their own ignorance." Here you're admitting that your assertions were and are baseless, which is tantamount to ignorance. I'm not trying to put this all on you TU119, but I think a large segment of the US population walk around with these kinds of baseless ideas in their heads. Now you have to ask yourself why you believe something for which there is no evidence. I encourage you, get down to the bottom of this mystery.

Originally Posted by Torrent User #119

So because its one of the few area's where the US isn't leading the charge we should just hand over 1/6 of the economy to the federal government. Their are things we can do to get better and cheaper health care, and they don't involve having the governments hands in our pockets.

Alright, keep going with the rhetoric and deny the obvious. I hope readers have more sense.

Originally Posted by Torrent User #119

well, we may not agree on health care, but at least we agree on this.

;-)

Originally Posted by Torrent User #119

If your poor, 99.9% of the time its your fault. For poor people to get rich their needs to be incentives, but giving them money for doing nothing encourages them to continue doing nothing.
Medicare & Medicaid (and Social Security) are NOT successful. They will be Bankrupt by 2017...that's just 7 years! again, its a Ponzi Scheme...as long as you have more people paying in then collecting, its afforable...But once that trend goes the oppisite direction (IE:baby boomers getting old) you begin your slide to bankruptcy.

Look the reality is that the entitlement programs are bare minimums for survival. People collecting welfare aren't living it up in mansions and cruising around in their yachts. The notion that it incents people to stay on the dole is complete bunk. People living on welfare live below the poverty line. This is by design. Welfare is not meant to be a permanent solution, but a stop gap to help people when they fall on hard times. Hence the term "safety net". I'm going to refrain from saying anything inflammatory, but I want to leave you with a quote I read somewhere, "A society is judged by how they treat their most vulnerable." Think about it.

Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, are not ponzi schemes. That's more fringe right wing nonsense. They're government run social programs that are exceedingly popular (especially with vote happy seniors), and they are not going anywhere. Demographics are causing some difficulty for the programs to be self funded, but they will receive funds regardless. I don't think even you, TU119, want to see grandma get thrown under the bus. The important point to note is not whether the programs can self sustain, but that they are effective and efficient in providing care for those who are in the program. And the answer is yes they are. One dollar spent in Medicare for example, goes a lot farther than one dollar spent in the private sector. That is an undeniable fact.

Originally Posted by Torrent User #119

Its not to spite anyone, you have to hit the bottom to truly learn from your mistakes. The government should have NO say in how you run your business.

Thats wrong, both sides Didn't agree.
here's a list of all the wasteful spending that went into that disastrous bill.
That's just one of the many reasons this country needs a Tea Party conservative in the White House.

You know what? I'm glad you're quoting Sen. Tom Coburn. Obviously that means you think he's a reliable source. In late 2008, Senator Coburn voted YES on HR 1424. What was HR 1424 for?... The bank bailout, to the tune of $700 million dollars. Allow me to quote the good Senator:

"Taxpayers deserve to know that there is no guarantee this plan will work, but there is a guarantee that we will face a financial catastrophe if we do nothing. If banks continue to fail and stop lending the average American could lose their job, be unable to secure a loan for a car, home or college education, and find their life savings and retirement in jeopardy. Our economy depends on having liquid assets available for credit and lending just as an automobile engine needs oil. If those liquid assets stop flowing, our economy will be seriously damaged and will require far more costly and lengthy repairs."

Did Tom Coburn just kick the shit out of your argument for letting the banks fail? Look, you can't be so simplistic and ideologically pure in your analysis. The world is not black and white. Even a staunch right winger like Coburn agrees. The point is, although there may be differences on strategy, there is agreement that action had to be taken. Your denial of this is just stubborn partisan think.

Originally Posted by Torrent User #119

No, I wouldn't vote for Obama...

Why am I not surprised.

Originally Posted by Torrent User #119

Nearly every bill Obama passes, he's spitting into the faces of people like: Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Franklin, Madison, Adams, Coolidge, etc.

More baseless fringe right wing nonsense. Got proof?

Originally Posted by Torrent User #119

And last but not least, while we disagree on almost everything, I'm impressed with your knowledge of my country, Do you pay that much attention to Canada's politics too?
That said, you have been clearly fed left-wing propaganda your whole life.

Well, I'll take that as a complement. Thank you. Here in Canada I'm a small-c conservative, or a progressive conservative. Apparently, in the US that makes me a dirty pinko hippy. I pay attention to US politics because of how much influence the US exerts on the rest of the world, especially Canada. So in a sense, I also have a stake.

finally, the site is back up...

s2cuts
So let me get this straight, you're saying the article, from the AP, is false? I encourage people to read the link and figure out for themselves who's right.

Not false...But it does contradict itself.
They talk about all the republican filibustering, then go on to say this:

your link
"During most of Obama's first year in office and for a few weeks this year, 58 Democratic senators and two Independents who normally vote with them held a filibuster-proof 60-seat majority in the Senate. That vanished last month when Massachusetts Republican Scott Brown captured the seat of the late Sen. Ted Kennedy, who died last summer.
Most notably, Brown's victory has stymied Obama's push to overhaul health care just as the bill was approaching the finish line. Before Brown's election, both the Senate and the House of Representatives had passed separate versions of the reform legislation.
Brown broke the Democratic 60-seat majority before the two chambers could meld differences in their bills for a final vote in both houses."

s2cuts
This goes back to my original statement that "US citizens are victims to their own ignorance." Here you're admitting that your assertions were and are baseless, which is tantamount to ignorance. I'm not trying to put this all on you TU119, but I think a large segment of the US population walk around with these kinds of baseless ideas in their heads. Now you have to ask yourself why you believe something for which there is no evidence. I encourage you, get down to the bottom of this mystery.

I'm not ignorant, I strive to learn things everyday, whether it be at work ( you'll find out soon what that is when your parents kick you out of their basement), or at home, in which I watch tv and read books, I watch things like Glenn Beck, and am currently reading "The 5000 Year Leap".
and in that statement to which you were commenting on, I believe what I do not because I have seen congress literally pull the plug on granny, but they have done many unconstitutional things over the years.

s2cuts
Look the reality is that the entitlement programs are bare minimums for survival. People collecting welfare aren't living it up in mansions and cruising around in their yachts. The notion that it incents people to stay on the dole is complete bunk. People living on welfare live below the poverty line. This is by design. Welfare is not meant to be a permanent solution, but a stop gap to help people when they fall on hard times. Hence the term "safety net". I'm going to refrain from saying anything inflammatory, but I want to leave you with a quote I read somewhere, "A society is judged by how they treat their most vulnerable." Think about it.

Exactly my point. People on welfare are living pretty crappy lives...and its because of THEM, not the government. People arn't "entitled" to ANYTHING. Programs like welfare should be shutdown...make those people feel the pinch, and then, and only then will they be sick and tired of living like that and will work hard on getting out of that situation which they put themselves in. America is all about freedom, not living in a nanny state where the government gives you your bottle.
I'll leave you with a quote as well.
Benjamin Franklin "We should make the poor uncomfortable and kick them out of poverty."

Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, are not ponzi schemes. That's more fringe right wing nonsense. They're government run social programs that are exceedingly popular (especially with vote happy seniors), and they are not going anywhere. Demographics are causing some difficulty for the programs to be self funded, but they will receive funds regardless. I don't think even you, TU119, want to see grandma get thrown under the bus. The important point to note is not whether the programs can self sustain, but that they are effective and efficient in providing care for those who are in the program. And the answer is yes they are. One dollar spent in Medicare for example, goes a lot farther than one dollar spent in the private sector. That is an undeniable fact.

Yes, they are Ponzi Schemes. Of course their popular with seniors, because they have been paying into them for a very long time, and would like some of their money back.
LOLOL, really!?! Your trying to tell me that government is more efficient then the private sector (aka: capitalism). Competition drives down costs for everything in the private sector, while the government is so big and bloated it moves very slow to do anything.

s2cuts
You know what? I'm glad you're quoting Sen. Tom Coburn. Obviously that means you think he's a reliable source. In late 2008, Senator Coburn voted YES on HR 1424. What was HR 1424 for?... The bank bailout, to the tune of $700 million dollars. Allow me to quote the good Senator:

"Taxpayers deserve to know that there is no guarantee this plan will work, but there is a guarantee that we will face a financial catastrophe if we do nothing. If banks continue to fail and stop lending the average American could lose their job, be unable to secure a loan for a car, home or college education, and find their life savings and retirement in jeopardy. Our economy depends on having liquid assets available for credit and lending just as an automobile engine needs oil. If those liquid assets stop flowing, our economy will be seriously damaged and will require far more costly and lengthy repairs."

Did Tom Coburn just kick the shit out of your argument for letting the banks fail? Look, you can't be so simplistic and ideologically pure in your analysis. The world is not black and white. Even a staunch right winger like Coburn agrees. The point is, although there may be differences on strategy, there is agreement that action had to be taken. Your denial of this is just stubborn partisan think.

First of all I dont see where you thought I quoted this guy, I've never even heard of the man. Secondly, he was partially right. It would get worse if we do nothing...for a short period of time, then it would get much much better because we let people learn from their mistakes. Banks and Insurance companies should know not to give a loan to someone who make 10 bucks an hour and has 10k in credit card debt.

s2cuts
I'm a small-c conservative, or a progressive conservative.

Their is no such thing as a progressive conservative...its an oxymoron.

And on a side not...What your opinion on Danny Williams?
Heres a quote from him "This was my heart, my choice and my health."...Whoa! You guys better throw the book at him...he actually has the nerve to think that his body means its his choice.