Thread: Is World Peace Possible?

Originally Posted by LordHades

Effing hell, I am surrounded.



Time to regurgitate the leftist mass murderer liberal propaganda fed down your throats, ppl. At least make a strong case for it if it's what you really believe, instead of letting the conditioning speak for you.

First, glad to have your input.

Can you break down your point of view instead of listing a bunch of books? Because truthfully, I have no idea what you're talking about, and it's not apparent that you've read those books you listed. Just explain to us so we can understand and possibly respond, yes? I'm familiar with the one-world religion/government issues you brought up, and just to make a distinction: there's a difference between political discussions of a new world order (that are supposed to refer to the future of policy and cooperation between nations, and which isn't just exclusive to liberals) and the One-World Government conspiracy stuff that refers to a collective of powerful elite with an objective of global dominance.

Also, I think we would all appreciate if you could tone down your own conditioned language (for example, "bionic one world religion" and "leftist mass murderer liberal propaganda fed down your throats") because it makes you sound like a conspiracy lover and not an educated debater.

Thank you for the detailed references LordHades and I will take a further look and who knows my opinion may change on the religion aspect but not on the rest. I'm actually a conservative, living in the USA, who has lost his native country in a revolution, that has stunted that countries growth on all fronts for decades. I believe there are times when a revolution serves a valuable purpose, especially when you are dealing with a country that has an elite upper class, small middle class and large uneducated lower class that has little chance of improving their status.



As for muti nationals yes they are throwing vast amount of money at the liberals, in order to accomplish their agendas, which will help the rich get richer and the poor kept where they are serving the rich. MNC's would theoretically prefer a one world religion, for then they could do what they do with greater ease and face less resistance. I also realize that organized religion alone has probably claimed close to 1 billion deaths throughout the ages. I am not a religious man but i believe in faith and if religion provides that then great but it shouldn't be mixed with politics. But for World Peace to be possible i still think religion has to be completely absent or a unified religion has to be respected, like the UN is trying to push without any success.


Then we have the greed over oil, which has led to most of the wars this century and caused over 150 million deaths. The next deterrent to world peace will be hunger and sadly its multi national corporations, who help keep prices down and will aid feed these people and create jobs in those poorer countries. This will simply make the elite classes richer and help maintain their workforce, who will struggle to survive. Eventually some of them will revolt and other conflicts will arise. This will happen again and again. In conclusion world peace will never be maintainable as long as humans are involved.

Care to enlighten me where as to where these figures of 1 billion deaths on account of religion and the 150 million on account of the greed for oil come from?
The recent Iraq war, some might said the pinnacle of greed for oil, in some very left leaning statistics (Iraq Body Count) who also include on the body count from insurgents blowing up their own fellow civilians (we could fork the discussion in the religion branch of things here, but lets save that for later) has counted in the most violent year of war, the invading year and by far the most bloody, 25000 deaths on both sides of the conflict. And let me remind you, this was WAR. Let's assume this number is correct. Personally I have my reservations about this source, but for the sake of argument lets assume it is.

Now, here in Brazil, we have 50.000 homicides a year. Let that sink in.
Ok, I will repeat now: 50.000 a year on average. That's 2 Iraq invasions (invasions, not prolonged occupation, lest the comparison would be even more grotesque) of civilian homicides a year.

Now, where the hell are the human rights activists and happy left to scream "BLOODY MURDER! WE ARE BEING SLAUGHTERED HERE"?
Oh right! They are in power. My bad.

Try as I might to not be belligerent here, I find it hard to believe that you are being completely sincere here.

So let's put it plainly: I call your bluff.
I cannot fathom how does one calls oneself conservative and in the same breath churn out the class struggle debacle. It just doesn't fit. Neither your numbers.

Your actually saying conservatives can't comment, understand nor sympathize with class struggle and mentioning conservatism is part of my ruse to gain sympathy, uhm ok but your not getting my point. I think your idea of conservatism greatly varies than mine due to our different political cultures and your view on what conservatism is. Check Durham's views on Conservatism "The Conservative does not believe that the power of politics to put things right in this world is unlimited…because man is an imperfect creature with a streak of evil in his nature as well as good." That's my point that we are imperfect and human natures needs lead to conflict.

Anyways back on topic, what does the homicide rate in Brazil have anything to do with this argument except attempt to gain sympathy for your peoples struggle and support the consensus that global peace will never be achieved. It's horrible what is happening there but comparing it to Iraq is like comparing Apples to Oranges besides far more people died due to oil around the world than that minor war.

As for the one billion figure, it was actually a conservative estimate on my part, so after hitting google here's a reference for you. "According to University of Hawaii political scientist Rudolph J. Rummel,the total number killed in all of human history is estimated to be about 284,638,000. Of that number, 151,491,000 were killed during the past 100 years. The single largest killer in all of human history is, by far, atheistic Communism with a total of 110,000,000 … over 1/3 of all people ever killed! If we add to that number just two other regimes where religion of any sort was strongly discouraged, Nazi Germany and Nationalist China, the number rises to 141,160,000. Almost 50% of all the killings in human history were committed in the past 100 years by regimes that either actively promoted atheism or strongly discouraged religion."

Also keep in mind "We have not considered the over one billion abortions, where Christianity seems to be particularly unwelcome."

http://www.newscholars.com/papers/Ki...%20Atheism.pdf

So i stand by my estimates and it would take me hours to list every single war or battle that has erupted due to oil and oil embargoes but i assure you the figures quickly add up. It's a damn shame.

Ok, now things just got wild.

Do you realize the quotes you posted actually corroborate what I was saying?

"The Conservative does not believe that the power of politics to put things right in this world is unlimited…because man is an imperfect creature with a streak of evil in his nature as well as good."

Right. I believe in the power of the individual owning it to his own actions, duties and responsibilities, guided by a strong moral code (the judeo-christian one, even if I am not religious myself). Take a collective of such individuals and you have a free society. (Eg: America's golden age in the 19th century). This implies freedom to exercise such responsibilities instead of selling down to daddy Party-State to take on the reins of every aspect in ones life. Government in most of the world has absurdly overstepped its role. Eg: Cuba. Where you work, what you do, what you eat (if you do at all), where you live, where you may go and what you may say are dictate by mass murderer. Complain and see what happens.

The difference at the core of our views, and you are calling yours conservative when I say it is very left-leninist-marxist-progressive-liberal-socialist is that you mentioned to want MORE government. And what's worse, a global one.
To put it in crude terms: I don't want a freaking russian or chinese or iranian shoving it's boot in my face.

And class struggled is utterly BULL. Marx was a fraud and actually forged the english blue prints he used in his books to corroborate his thesis when the truth was the opposite. There is no class determinism if there is individual and economic freedom! Those who want more will work for it and ascend. Simple as that. Or do you think Steve Jobs was born to a noble clan with with his billions already in the bank?

My comment about brazilian homicidal rates, far from trying to harness sympathy (that was your move) was to trace a parallel between the absurd claims and numbers people pull out of their assess (pardon my french) when they just wanna take a jab at the USA. Hence, you see quite literally mountains of text written about it their enemies, but were you to look at their own closets, the skeletons are a million (literally, again) times more abundant.

The propaganda is such that we heard aberrations like this "150 million" over oil. Dude: it would need to be the equivalent of 6.000 Iraq invasions. Over OIL? Sorry, never happened.

As for the one billion figure, it was actually a conservative estimate on my part, so after hitting google here's a reference for you. "According to University of Hawaii political scientist Rudolph J. Rummel,the total number killed in all of human history is estimated to be about 284,638,000. Of that number, 151,491,000 were killed during the past 100 years. The single largest killer in all of human history is, by far, atheistic Communism with a total of 110,000,000 … over 1/3 of all people ever killed! If we add to that number just two other regimes where religion of any sort was strongly discouraged, Nazi Germany and Nationalist China, the number rises to 141,160,000. Almost 50% of all the killings in human history were committed in the past 100 years by regimes that either actively promoted atheism or strongly discouraged religion."

Have you read your own quote? I know I have, I know Profs. Rummel work, he coined the term democide.

So, let me get this straight: 284,638,000 is the estimated total number of of persons killed throughout history. Two hundred and eighty four million, six hundred and thirty eight thousand. Out of this total, how can religion (more of that in the next paragraph) be a responsible for 1 billion? Did they raise the dead and killed then over and over again?

And hold the frigging horses right there! All the quotes you posted account for deaths on the LACK of religion, not because of it (it's what I have been saying the whole damn time). Those abortions happened because they burn christians on those places and the heathens simply don't have a second thought about butchering a child right out of the womb.

So your 1 billion deaths on account of religion are for the lack of it? What the hell?!

You see, I think you mistook me for a militant atheist. I defend the opposite: even thought I am not a religious person myself, I live by the Judeo-Christian moral code and recognizes that this moral code allied to the economic and individual freedoms is what ushered a golden age in the west. Those are the flags I raise.

But a one world religion? This thing will never happen. It could only be born out of a global scale social engineering experiment (lo and behold, it is happening) and therefore would be a monster, and would kill as much or more than the leftist regimes.

I voted no but for a different reason that I have seen as the common thread in this topic. I don't want world peace. Why not? Because that would mean that everyone has conformed to groupthink.

I want my freedom to choose, independence, individuality, and creativeness. I am thankful everyday to live in a country that mostly allows this. It does sadden me to see this country moving in the wrong direction on this issue in my mind though.

Now some may argue that society could "agree to disagree" and avoid confrontation but in the end there would still need to be some leadership that ultimately controls everyone's driving actions, morals, and beliefs.

No thank you.

"No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Winston Churchill

Wow, I can't believe you said that! perhaps you would think differently if your loved ones were maimed or killed by someone else that prefers conflict?

Wanting or striving for world peace is not conforming to anything it a realisation that there is absolutely no need or excuse for killing - period!

I also don't need anyone to tell me what's right and wrong - I already know - as do 'you' and everyone else on this planet, its built into us.

When you do something bad you feel it, that gut feeling of 'shit perhaps I shouldn't have done that' and equally that warm feeling you get when you do something good, you can't 'learn' that but you can choose to ignore it.

You have been brain washed my friend - you would make a perfect soldier or politician - wake up man and think about what you are saying.

It really worries me that people with your way of thinking exist in the world - as I said in my earlier post we will not see world peace in this lifetime, not until people like you wake up or become extinct.

@DeadAgain:; Churchill himself was quoting Plato ;)

@cochese: Sorry, I missed your post! I am at work now and can't linger or write long posts, but you will get an answer for the points you raised.

---------- Post added at 11:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:15 AM ----------

@ deneven Somehow I think Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler, Fidel, Guevara and a long list of others didn't get the memo and lacked this gut feeling you described.

Well I tend to disagree, I can't prove it obviously but its a basic function we are all born with. I can recall an incident with regards to Hitler: when he was witnessed to have been physically sick when he was presented with a lampshade made from the skin of executed Jews. I'll put money on it that that guy didn't sleep well at night.