Thread: Isn't torrent ratios a zero-sum game? ie how can everyone have a >1 ratio?

It's quite normal for people to have a ratio of 10:1 or more (especially if they have a seedbox). Effectively that means for the 1 file they've downloaded, ten other users have downloaded it. If these guys all have a positive ratio as wel, it means that they've all seeded to atleast one other person. The buck needs to stop somewhere (there aren't an infinite number of users) meaning you'll get some users who download, without ever seeding it on (if simply because everybody already has the torrent).

ie. In order to increase your ratio, you need to decreases someone else's.


So how can trackers even expect people to always have a positive ratio? Are there really that many users with very low ratios?



Hmmm: possible answer: - uploading new torrents 'increases' the size of the game. Eg if all those end users who can't seed their ratio up, instead add a new torrent, the initial seeders can leech this.
Another answer - torrenting requires an ever expanding user base. So long as those end users invite enough additional users that they'll leech off them, they'll be able to get their ratio up. Still, this would imply an exponentially expanding user base, which wouldn't be sustainable, and eventually it'll implode.

This is why many trackers implement a bonus system

By using a bonus system: users can trade points for upload credit

Also trackers have periods of free-leech where all the torrents do not count towards the download stats but all the upload still counts 100%

which is another great way to increase ratio

Some trackers bypass the need for a ratio all-together therefore letting you free to download what you want but hence you must follow their seed time limits

That's why there are seeding bonuses and donations.

there are so many ways to overcome the systemic anomaly....

torrents may be marked 50%, 75%, free or 2x up etc etc....

also, many trackers automatically makes your ratio on a torrent to 1 if seed time on it > X hours etc...

There are plenty of methods. I don't see why an exponentially growing user base is necessary...

I don't see why an exponentially growing user base is necessary...

Well no, the point more is that if you've got someone willing to seed a torrent 10 times over, then it's perfectly acceptable to allow 10 users to download that torrent for free.

But yeah, freeleech etc seems like a much better system, than allowing people to have a ratio <1.

This is interesting, something I had never thought about.

My first answer is uploading. The vast amount of torrents uploaded changes the game. For example, what.cd is a tracker without that much freeleech. But almost everyone has uploaded a torrent, so that makes up for the "zero-sum" game you speak of.

My second answer is freeleech. Freeleech is essential to ratio economics. Trackers that don't have enough freeleech (BitMeTv, BitMe) have messed up economics and no one can download anything. However, trackers like IPT that have too much subsequently have messed up economics because everyone HnRs.

I've argued this point before, and generally people don't believe it's a problem. But as you say, when someone uploads all their torrents to 10:1 and they have a much higher upload speed, how is the poor new member with the terrible connection speed supposed to keep a good ratio? This is especially a problem on older trackers with large numbers of members because any torrent worth having has already been uploaded, and many have large numbers of seeders. I think the best way to deal with this problem, especially on trackers without bonus systems established, is to limit the upload on any given torrent to 3:1 or 5:1.

that seems counterproductive jackyboy, because it only takes into consideration the concerns of those who have a hard time seeding and not the overall user base (or keeping torrents seeded). I like the freeleech option because not only does it encourage people who have a hard time keeping ratios to seed, but it allows people to get stuff (like large packs--back tv episodes) without having to burn through what ratio they have.

then again these can be abused, so perhaps a limitation is in order when its noticed that some users are just using freeleech to hit&run, so to speak, and leech without giving back.

Well sure, but nothing is perfect. On large trackers, like what.cd for example, there are hundreds of people seeding the more popular torrents, how are you ever going to get any meaningful upload credit if they never stop seeding? Not only that, but there's not really any music out there that's still worth uploading at this point, even if you find something that's not already on the tracker, no one will ever download it. Freeleach does help, but if you only get to download during those times, it's not much use to even have a spot on that tracker is it?